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dan45mcc

I wish Gasoline would go to $5 a gallon

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OK so you are saying that the denaturing is the main reason for spikes in E85..the main reason for tracking Gasoline.. ?

 

I thought the main reason was the NG , Diesel and Gasoline energies needed from the farming to the distribution ...

 

 

1. Any other product that can be used to denature that is not related to the Oil companies list of products.. what could be used.. what has potetnial to be used and are those being loooked at as alternatives

 

2. The Farming to Distribution fuel energies...  what can be done in those areas.. I do see a few Ethanol plants using or considering the use of manure to food wastes to run the ethanol plants ..lowering those costs . I belive we've had discussions of solr on the forum before

 

The Farming aspect.. I know once we gte to cellulosic less fertilizers will be needed .which will reduce not only those costs but also fuel energy to run the farnmers equipment.. the tractors dont need to be burning up diesel etc...

 

Distribution...I would think would think those costs would come down with hub nd wheel type set-up for E85 Stations ... the ethnaol plant being the hub .. building out E85 stations within say  a 75 mile radius

 

Yes we understand the relationship between the oil conmapnies and ethanol ..

 

 

What  will it take to remove the ethnaol Industry as far away from dependency on the Oil Compnies .. and is this even a goal for ethanol

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I have a question and some info on this topic. I believe 1outlaw told me that pentane and some other components of gasoline make up natural gasoline in varying proportions depending on time of year. Before denaturing ethanol, what were these components used for----I believe they are the more volatile(high vapor pressure) components? Also, when it comes to cellulosic ethanol, it will actually take more fertilizer since the stalks and cobs contain fertilizer and will be hauled off the field along with organic matter----not good long term. The fertilizer components could be hauled back to the field from the ethanol plant but not much organic matter. Right now the fertilizer is hauled out in the distillers to be fed and goes back to the field in the manure.

Marty

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Dan, I guess my thinking is that the reasons you listed for ethanol to track gas on price would be more long term.  I dont see how a farmer spending more on diesel fuel could cause the price of E85 to go up the very same day that gas goes up.  But that's just my thinking.  Maybe there's something with the whole cashflow / markets that I'm unaware of.

 

I still think the main reason for E85 tracking gasoline can be traced to greed.  But still, I'd rather patronize a ethanol company and the farmers that make money on it than an oil company...

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Guest colchiro
I still think the main reason for E85 tracking gasoline can be traced to greed.  But still, I'd rather patronize a ethanol company and the farmers that make money on it than an oil company...

 

You hit the nail on the head. ;)

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Ok - I did not make something very clear- E85 blended at ethanol plants usually will make the gas portion with natural gasoline which most times costs just a little less than gas unless there is a supply issue as when Katrina hit- yes this natural gasoline cost will track with gas as a general rule. This type e85 maybe makes up 1/3 of total gallons sold in the US (tops).

 

While ethanol at the plant will eventually get pulled up in price by increasing gas prices due to demand for discretionary blending of e10-- there is often significant delay in this effect. Oil terminal ethanol will usually track gas very quickly and this is being blended (at the terminal) with gasoline that goes up immediately at 5pm based on futures prices- thus E85 blended at the terminal (with NL gas) tends to track gas much more quickly in the wholesale markets. However station owner sometimes enter into agreements with suppliers who just automatically run a certain cents/ gallon discount to gas- this is not real common though and is more often a station induced move.

 

Yes Dan- to offer the consumer the best deal would be to keep a spoke of e85 stations (who will also need to sell other products such as e10 / e20- to spread fixed costs over more total gallons) within 80 miles or so of an ethanol plant. Best way to break the oil hold over ethanol pricing would be efficient e98 vehicles- too many current FFV's compromise too much in efficiency compared to what they could be and the 15-30% gas requirement today still requires some dependency on oil company products and services. Less % mileage loss on an dedicated ethanol vehicle combined with poorer prices for ethanol sold to oil companies for e10 would likely encourage many more ethanol plants to get involved in direct marketing- particularly if capital is available. I think for the short term though, in the absence of e98 vehicles- ethanol plants will continue to reinvest in plant technologies that will cut their production costs via lower (or no purchased) energy consumption, more income from better byproducts, and better yield of ethanol per bushel.

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