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dan45mcc

Performance Boaters love E85

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I'm assuming these performance boat engines are 4 stroke and not the 2 stroke versions found on recreational boats that create much negative ethanol PR.  I don't have a boat and don't know what percent of boat engines on recreational boats are 4 stroke. 

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Coulda told you that Dan- a couple of those guys (Sanger Rat and FC Pilot-Paul) have been tuning and posting their results online on racing forums for a long time. Paul had one boat (his own) that nearly laid him up a while. She came up out of the water when he gunned it and went over backwards- putting the 8 intake tubes into his back. Definitely not 2 strokes ;D  Paul also does drag race engine tuning and owns glide and door cars.

 

A few years back one of the local engineers for Mercury Marine was doing a fair amount of design/tuning with E85 in their performance/racing division- and it worked awesome. Not sure where the program developed- though he lives in the same town I do, I have not seen him or remember his name.

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I'm assuming these performance boat engines are 4 stroke and not the 2 stroke versions found on recreational boats that create much negative ethanol PR.  I don't have a boat and don't know what percent of boat engines on recreational boats are 4 stroke.

 

 

Yeah not 2 strokers.. Just thought it was funny to see Boaters saying what a great fuel E85 is

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I have  stupid question, what's the issue with 2 strokes and E85?

 

Reason I ask is that I've worked in a hobby shop for 12 years and most of the 2 strokes (and a the few 4 strokes)  we've sold have been "nitro" fueled.  They run a mix of Nitromethan, Methanol, and some sort of natural and/or synthetic caster oil for lubricant.  We usually sell the fuel too with a blend of 10%-33% Nitro, 8%-20% lube, the rest being methanol.  The blocks, heads, pistons, and rods are aluminum, the cranks appear to be some sort of steel, the sleeve/cylinder wall is usually a chrome or nickle plated brass then there are a variety of astics, metals, rubbers, and silicones used in the carb and fuel lines that run to and from a plastic tank.  What is the major difference that these two strokes can handle a much more corrosive fuel, but those boat and lawn equipment 2 strokes can't? 

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The big issue that I've found is that many oils don't stay mixed with E85.  Mainly conventional 2-stroke oils, but some synthetics also drop some component out of suspension.

 

The other thing with 2-strokes is that you need to have the fuel / air mixture set properly, otherwise you risk damaging the motor.  I suspect this, combined with early E10, was the source of the concern with ethanol in 2-stroke motors.  People had 'em set right on the edge of being too lean (where they run the best) and then just substituted in E10, pushing it over the edge to running too lean and damaging the motor.

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I have  stupid question, what's the issue with 2 strokes and E85?

 

Reason I ask is that I've worked in a hobby shop for 12 years and most of the 2 strokes (and a the few 4 strokes)  we've sold have been "nitro" fueled.  They run a mix of Nitromethan, Methanol, and some sort of natural and/or synthetic caster oil for lubricant.  We usually sell the fuel too with a blend of 10%-33% Nitro, 8%-20% lube, the rest being methanol.  The blocks, heads, pistons, and rods are aluminum, the cranks appear to be some sort of steel, the sleeve/cylinder wall is usually a chrome or nickle plated brass then there are a variety of astics, metals, rubbers, and silicones used in the carb and fuel lines that run to and ferom a plastic tank.  What is the major difference that these two strokes can handle a much more corrosive fuel, but those boat and lawn equipment 2 strokes can't?

 

Many anti-ethanol posters state ethanol causes water to be absorbed into the fuel and thus all kinds of problems results including exhaust components.

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I have  stupid question, what's the issue with 2 strokes and E85?

 

Reason I ask is that I've worked in a hobby shop for 12 years and most of the 2 strokes (and a the few 4 strokes)  we've sold have been "nitro" fueled.  They run a mix of Nitromethan, Methanol, and some sort of natural and/or synthetic caster oil for lubricant.  We usually sell the fuel too with a blend of 10%-33% Nitro, 8%-20% lube, the rest being methanol.  The blocks, heads, pistons, and rods are aluminum, the cranks appear to be some sort of steel, the sleeve/cylinder wall is usually a chrome or nickle plated brass then there are a variety of astics, metals, rubbers, and silicones used in the carb and fuel lines that run to and ferom a plastic tank.  What is the major difference that these two strokes can handle a much more corrosive fuel, but those boat and lawn equipment 2 strokes can't?

 

Many anti-ethanol posters state ethanol causes water to be absorbed into the fuel and thus all kinds of problems results including exhaust components.

 

The thing that gets me about that is that these R/C fuels do that too yet I don't hear the boat guys who still run nitro or gas boats complain about that, usually the biggest issue is that some water finds it way into the hull no matter if it's propelled by nitro, gas, electric, or sail.  Also haven't heard anything from the guys running the 2 stroke gas planes or cars and trucks in relation to these issues on 10% like some 1/1 boaters claim either.  Now I have seen what the nitro fuels do to non-compatable materials like Tygon, which does start to dissolve within a few days if allowed to sit in said lines.  The exhausts on these boats tend to be some sort of plastic or aluminum muffler coupled to an aluminum manifold or header by a piece of silicone tubing, and usually has some sort of fiber gasket between the block and manifold.  There are a couple ferrous metal, chrome plated, and/or brass pieces in there too and there can be rust associated with some of those parts, but even the electric and sail bosts have similar issues due to being boats.

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Here is the way the fuels industry works BJ- there is a big side market that sells snake oil. It is the over the counter (OTC) fuels additive market. while a FEW of the items sold inside a c-store, auto parts, or mass market store auto department are legitimate- most are not and border on downright fraud. Wherever there is a combination of money available (boating/small engines), ignorance of fuels and how things work (typical fuels consumer), and hot button topics---the makers of these snake oil products will spend big money to make the market bigger. Oil majors condescend because their refinery by-products go to these manufacturers of additives- let alone the work these shucksters do to make it seem only good ole fossil is best . There are legitimate additive makers such as GE/Betz, Lubrizol, Schaeffer, etc- they make valued products to fix real issues that fossil fuels have and these are typically added at refinery or oil terminal/jobber- rarely OTC.

When you see octane enhancers, valve cleaners, injector cleaners, fuel corrosion fixers-- think about it-- who really needs something that is only created in the minds of consumers to benefit the BG's of the world? More than just some of this stuff is detrimental. And who needs to add Heet to E10 which is what--95% of all gas today? It is all just marketing.

 

As mentioned- in a non-oil injected 2 stroke- the oil must remain mixed. Who picks up their saw to shake it, who stores mixed gas/oil in sealed glass (so you can see separation), who stores fuel in full sealed cans, who either fills the tool with gas or runs the carb and tank empty before storage? THIS IS EQUALLY IMPORTANT FOR ANY FUEL TYPE. I do these things, do not use additives, and the only time I ever have had a problem is with E0 gas left in a small 4 stroke for 6 months (and this was every time I tried to do this with E0 gas). I have 3 saws that get infrequent use- the glass jar trick is what I have used and is the way we also store it on the farm even back in the 60's. Just be careful with glass to not store it in your garage- put it in a dark unheated yard barn where if you break it you will not spill it where it could get to a heat or spark source.

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