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Greengenes

Anyone out there flying on AGE85 yet?

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I know it is probably early , and not approved yet as a fuel to the motoring public,  but using this fuel in an experimental fashion ( perhaps with accompanying 337 forms) should be a way to get it out to the public, without getting it held up in committee somewhere. 

 

  Texas Skyways has the STC for conversions of a handful of Cessna models ( 180, 182 ) ,  but how about anyone else with an experimental(RV, GlasAir,etc) and a little extra time on their hands?? Why not get them access to this fuel ??

 

  I'd be interested in a  conversion for the Lycoming IO-540 / Cherokee Six  .. and as soon as I get a little extra time on my

hands, perhaps that's where it'll be spent.

 

  Any interest in AGE85 blending from our friends at Utica or VeraSun??

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Hopefully 1outlaw(Utica) and Jim Behnken(Great Planes Fuels) are making contact. Also 1outlaw is next door to EAA so hopefully he can get those anti-ethanol guys on the bandwagon. Here is a link to some aluminum and rubber parts in a 27 month jar test using E85 I posted on Supercub.org

 

http://sparky.supercub.org/photopost/showgallery.php?cat=500&ppuser=1522&sl=1

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Cessna- I did get ahold of Jim and we talked about several things. Jim did not feel the natural gasoline was the way to go due to some poor product he had heard about in New Mexico. Natural gasoline is variable by source thus the variations could be a concern. He feels that sticking to isopentane (straight) or tolulene is the  best way to go. A reservation he and I have on tolulene is it's high benzene (carcinogen) levels but if handled carefully it could be used--- realistically it is already in the alternative- ave gas. He was not encouraging on trying to calm EAA's e10 resistance.

 

Our company controller and I discussed AGE85 briefly and I found he had some interest from a couple of parties. I will explore this with him as time allows to see if it can lead anywhere. Unfortunately economics dictate but if enough market could be built - I feel that planes could be easily optimized for alcohol and it could compete very favorably in that market- even better than the low value auto gas marketplace in which FFV's are not truly optimized/ only adapted. What kind of potential gallons do you see in the WI./ Chicago market???? By when???

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1outlaw,  I don't know about the Wi and Chicago market. To get people to use it it would take mfg. and EAA backing which probably won't happen it seems. I guess realistically with $4 gas the people that fly are rich enough it doesn't matter and the rest quit.  The other thing when it comes to safety and operation of the aircraft one size has to fit all-----what one person can make work another would have problems with and then the lawyers get involved. The pilot on another site was totally against ethanol because of the fact it's not as safe as straight gasoline----can't sump water and phase separation when it cools.  He was telling about a sky diver 182 Cessna that crashed and had fatalities because the engine got a gulp of water on takeoff----I'm thinking this is a safe fuel in his mind and yet 2 people got killed because somebody didn't sump the fuel tanks properly. Sure wish I knew how to get people to come around in their thinking.

Marty

 

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Cessna- Innovators are always viewed as kind of out there, a little crazy, perhaps even just plain wrong- until they succeed. 5% of the people lead in innovation, 15% then adopt this into practice, then the herd (50%) joins, and the last 35% just do what daddy did until it is no longer available. We have to address the 15% and then the herd to make things change.

 

I did not understand the sky diver thing- was he using straight gas, e10, or Age85? Phase separation would occur at approx. 0.13tsp, 4tsp, or 32tsp of water/ gallon of fuel. The later two would end up being 8tsp or 64tsp approx. because they would be about 1/2 water/ 1/2 alcohol. I do not know if a 50/50 alcohol/water mix would fire any better than water in a warm high compression engine ;)

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1outlaw --  I like the schpeel about innovators , that sounds about right..

 

re: the skydiver accident.  I don't think it was  AGE85 in the wing tanks, but more like E10.

If they had the MoGas STC for this 182 and re-fueled without checking the sumps, then all

it takes is a little turn to the left after a straight out departure and before you know it , you're

in the trees..  This scenario seems to play out over and over again , and it must drive the feds

nuts.  Lots of entries in the NTSB reports showing  somewhere near the accident sequence

was a tankful of fuel that came from someones pickup or an unfamiliar source.  I don't think I've

seen fuel contamination more than twice in all the years I've been draining wing sumps, but I

can't say I've always  checked after taking on fuel while enroute...

 

Isn't there a conductivity check for alcohol fuel that could tell it's purity??

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I was gone to Minneapolis for a couple of days. I also agree with your innovators. Ethanol wasn't a factor in the sky diver accident. A lot of the Cessna fuel tanks are rubber bladders held in place with spring clip type devices. I had to check for wrinkles on the bottom of the tanks on my plane and so did a lot of others  as they could dam up water that couldn't be sumped. I'll bet this was the cause of that accident but don't know for sure. Nitrile rubber bladders are what work with AGE85 and that is what most are made of now. The other 2 types of tanks for aircraft usually are aluminum and also wing structure that is sealed with an epoxy type compound that is painted on. We all know that when switching from straight gas to ethanol blends in our cars the puddles of possible water go away and so it seems that would be good in planes also. After playing around with that jar of E10 that I added a little water to I think that a simple airplane test would be just put a small sample in the refrig or freezer depending on how cold of environment you plan on flying in and see if water/alcohol drops out. Here's another guys thoughts why ethanol is no good---carburetor ice. He thinks that the way ethanol attracts moisture in the air that carb ice would really be a problem---let's see, I believe ethanol acts as an anti-freeze. Here are some  of the hurdles we have to overcome.

Marty

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