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Ethanol Tuning Shops--Master thread

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SHOP INFO:

O2 Technology

Houston and Midland, Texas

Technical Assistance: 281-633-6620

Orders or questions: 1-877-702-TECH

brent.dyer@o2-technology.com

 

From the owners of O2 Technology.  ;)

 

 

 

 

 

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Hello,

 

We are new to this forum, but not new to E85 and nitrous oxide. O2 Technology collected dyno data on a carbureted 434 ci sbc on E85 and nitrous oxide. Not only did our carbureted 434 ci make 732 hp on just E85, but made 1132 hp  on E85 along with nitrous oxide.  :o We completed the dyno testing early this November. We have alot of data collected and will be presenting it through O2 Technology's website: www.o2-technology.com .

 

Two videos of the dyno session are on the homepage.

 

You can find the results along with some other tech articles at:

 

http://www.o2-technology.com/tech.aspx

 

 

SHOP INFO:

O2 Technology

Houston and Midland, Texas

Technical Assistance: 281-633-6620

Orders or questions: 1-877-702-TECH

brent.dyer@o2-technology.com

 

From the owners of O2 Technology.  ;)

 

 

 

 

 

 

welcome aboard N2 ..  very interesting read on your results ..361 Increase in HP on Nitrous plus E85 ! 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

btw ..I deleted your duplicate post ..not a big a deal

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There's a new kid on the E-85 block.

 

Andy Wicks at "RunE85" [ http://www.rune85.com/ ] & [ www.dynotuneusa.com ] in Watertown, South Dakota sent me a 3-position DiabloSport chip that he custom programmed for my 98,xxx mile, stock, '98 Ford F-150 XLT, 2x4 1/2 ton pickup powered by a 4.2L V-6 SFI engine.

 

I've been running the setup in the Ethanol position with full tanks of 85% (+/- 2%) E-85 for about 300 miles and have Dyno runs and Emissions tests, (conducted by the City of Albuquerque Main Testing Facilities),  to prove the VERY clean burning performance improvements of 12 HP & 5.5 ft-lbs Torque I've  seen.

 

The DiabloSport chip plugs right into the Ford OEM PCM (ECU) with no problem and, if you've done it once (and know you don't have to completely remove the battery and its support), it can be accomplished in less than 15 min. 

 

Running the wiring for, and installing, the 3-position selector switch and LED indicator can take an hour or so depending on how difficult it is to string the wire under the dash from the right side kick panel (on my vehicle) to a position on the dash near the steering wheel.

 

The best part of using the DiabloSport chip on E-85, besides the performance increases and definitely 'spunkier' response, is the fuel usage at the 5,000'-7,800' msl (above mean sea level) altitudes at which I operate. On one 95 mile trip on the interstate, using the cruise control all the way at 65 mph, light to no wind, I recorded 17.8 mpg which is almost 2 mpg better than what my average has been in this truck on 86 octane unleaded gas for the 6 years I've owned it.

 

At 78 mph over the same 95 mile road burning E-85, the fuel usage is 14.5 mpg which is pretty close to the average 13.5-14.5 mpg I've seen for 6 yrs on unleaded regular gas.

 

FWIW, the fuel usage figures, when using the bi-fuel, Full Flex Gold FFV Conversion kit on the same truck for over 4,000 miles, average 1.5-3 mpg less than on what I was getting on unleaded gas (depending on weight; speed; headwind-tailwind conditions; and whether the tail gate is up or down).

 

I was PERFECTLY satisified with the performance of the bi-fuel, Full Flex Gold Kit on my truck. The only reason I switched to the DiabloSport chip, (at considerable mechanics labor expense, is to get rid of the OEM speed limiter that Ford has set at 86 mph.

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New to the forum.  Jim Hall from Halltech.  We have an E85 12:1 CR 429 Katech motor that dynoed 631 HP on Katech's Superflow dyno before I tuned it.  The 08 Z06 gets 24.5 mpg on E85, and runs very smooth.  We set the motor up to my build specs, with a 116 LSA Torquer Cam from Katech which is the same cam they use on their Twin Turbo 1014 HP 427.  Smooth as stock and very deceptive horsepower characteristics, able to light the tires at half throttle in 1st gear at 40 mph easily.  Unmerciful power to be sure. 

 

I need help.  I have tried several open loop variations of fuel enrichment from the stoichiometric 9.85:1 and think I have found the ultimate power, but there may be more. 

 

I saw the Rick Dyer stuff, and wonder if anyone really knows the target ratio for max power with E85? 

 

We have challenged Hennessey Motorsports to a top speed run at the Texas Mile in October, and need any advice.  We are at around 660 HP now, but his ZR1 is around 770 with 1 bar boost and all his goodies.  He has already run 197 mph in the mile there.

 

Great forum,

 

Thanks,

 

 

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Welcome to the forum, Jim.  All this talk about Corvettes makes me wish I had mine back!  Anyway, per your question, E85 AFR's / Quick tech are generally quoted as follows:

 

 

Fuel ........................ AFRst ........ FARst ....... Equivalence Ratio ... Lambda

Gas stoich ................ 14.7 .......... 0.068 ................ 1 ................... 1

Gas max power rich .... 12.5 .......... 0.08 ................. 1.176 .............. 0.8503

Gas max power lean .... 13.23 ........ 0.0755 .............. 1.111 ............. 0.900

E85 stoich .................. 9.765 ....... 0.10235 ............ 1 ................... 1

E85 max power rich ...... 6.975 ....... 0.1434 .............. 1.40 ............... 0.7143

E85 max power lean ..... 8.4687 ...... 0.118 ............... 1.153 .............. 0.8673

E100 stoich ................ 9.0078 ...... 0.111 ............... 1 .................... 1

E100 max power rich .... 6.429 ........ 0.155 .............. 1.4 .................. 0.714

E100 max power lean .... 7.8 .... ...... 0.128 .............. 1.15 ................ 0.870

 

Ethanol reaches max torque at richer mixtures than gasoline will.

The term AFRst refers to the Air Fuel Ratio under stoichiometric, or ideal air fuel ratio mixture conditions. FARst refers to the Fuel Air Ratio under stoichiometric conditions, and is simply the reciprocal of AFRst.

 

Equivalence Ratio is the ratio of actual Fuel Air Ratio to Stoichiometric Fuel Air Ratio; it provides an intuitive way to express richer mixtures. Lambda is the ratio of actual Air Fuel Ratio to Stoichiometric Air Fuel Ratio; it provides an intuitive way to express leanness conditions (i.e., less fuel, less rich) mixtures of fuel and air.

 

As you can see from the table shown above this section, the ideal target AFR´s under boost for both gasoline and E85 are listed. For gasoline it's 13.23-12.5, and for E85 it's 8.47-6.975. However, with E85 you will not need to richen the mixture under WOT/boost as far as 6.975 or beyond. It does not need to be proportionally richer when compared to gasoline.

 

Why? Again, Because the fuel has a cooling effect on the intake charge and the space in which the combustion occurs. And at such a low AFR as 9.765 (lambda=1 on E85) or lower the fuel cools pretty good, don’t you think so?

 

Many people with some experience in mapping an ECU for use with E85 says that as high AFR as 8.5 or lambda=0.80-0.85 works well. No need to go to the extreme end of the useable scale to get safe power. It only uses a lot of fuel without giving any benefits.

 

E85 burns faster than gasoline at best mixtures so it is an inherently more efficient fuel. It also produces more exhaust gas for a give weight of fuel air mix giving higher average cylinder pressures in spite of lower EGT's. With straight E85 in a properly tuned car its good for about +5% power / torque increase. I suspect on a turbocharged car the benefit is larger.

 

Since you don't have to richen the mixture as many percent (proportionally) as you have to on gasoline, you can make more power without having to use as much fuel.

 

How does ignition timing change on E85 ?

Timing on ethanol blends will not change very much. MBT timing for both gasoline and E85 are very nearly the same at light to moderate engine loads. At high engine load the E85 will want just slightly more advance. The big difference will be fuel/air mixture. The E85 will give improved torque with much richer mixtures than gasoline. Both gasoline and E85 will give best thermal efficiency at about 15% rich of stoich, so the equivalent of 12.78:1 on gasoline would be about 8.5:1 on E85, but E85 will continue to give better torque numbers up to about +40% rich of stoich or 7:1 mixtures.

 

So basically 7.0 - 8.5 is a decent range.  I usually shoot for right around the 8.0 mark.  Though, of course, a dyno would help tune from that point to squeak out every last pony from your specific setup.  Also, as pointed out, there is also no need to go "extra rich for safety" with ethanol.  The high octane and enhanced cooling properties of E85 help offset that.

 

Anyway, let us know how the project progresses.

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Great information, thanks.  I have read most of the referrals, but I have not seen actual dyno tweaking the open loop a/f to get peak HP.  I am a Corvette Tuner, and have over 400 Z06s, C6s, and C5s under my belt including Katech cam cars all over the World.

 

We are using FAST 62lb injectors and run the so called Lean Power Max ratio now, but thought someone might have done testing at different ratios.  The 631 HP number was done by the folks that build the E85 C6.R GT1 Corvette Race Cars, our marketing partners Katech.

 

They cannot divulge information on air fuel to anyone, under agreement with those that they build for.  Understandably.

 

Here is the build sheet for our car that will be taking on the Hennessey ZR700:

 

SBEE85-3.jpg

 

Larger image:  http://www.halltechsystems.com/v/vspfiles/photos/SBEE85-3.jpg

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You've got your work cut out for you, especially if their car is on wastegate. A higher redline and more top end is what I think would at least get you close. Colder plugs on high compression oversquare stuff works beautifully.

 

What changed in power have you noticed fiddling with longer LSAs? Does ethanol like it? It's that wide torque curve that makes it so much fun and a wider LSA indeed gets you there. The fun thing about E85 is making power all across the revband and not in just one spot.

 

That ZR1 motor could probably top 1,000hp or at least tickle it a bit. 197mph HAD to have been a teaser. HP games are mental just as much as physical.

 

BTW, Jim--you've played with Oxytane before. It loves ethanol blends. With a remap, you could make some vicious torque increases. Oxytane increases the burn speed and knock resistance of the blends.

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Welcome to the forum, Jim.  All this talk about Corvettes makes me wish I had mine back!  Anyway, per your question, E85 AFR's / Quick tech are generally quoted as follows:

 

 

Fuel ........................ AFRst ........ FARst ....... Equivalence Ratio ... Lambda

Gas stoich ................ 14.7 .......... 0.068 ................ 1 ................... 1

Gas max power rich .... 12.5 .......... 0.08 ................. 1.176 .............. 0.8503

Gas max power lean .... 13.23 ........ 0.0755 .............. 1.111 ............. 0.900

E85 stoich .................. 9.765 ....... 0.10235 ............ 1 ................... 1

E85 max power rich ...... 6.975 ....... 0.1434 .............. 1.40 ............... 0.7143

E85 max power lean ..... 8.4687 ...... 0.118 ............... 1.153 .............. 0.8673

E100 stoich ................ 9.0078 ...... 0.111 ............... 1 .................... 1

E100 max power rich .... 6.429 ........ 0.155 .............. 1.4 .................. 0.714

E100 max power lean .... 7.8 .... ...... 0.128 .............. 1.15 ................ 0.870

 

Ethanol reaches max torque at richer mixtures than gasoline will.

The term AFRst refers to the Air Fuel Ratio under stoichiometric, or ideal air fuel ratio mixture conditions. FARst refers to the Fuel Air Ratio under stoichiometric conditions, and is simply the reciprocal of AFRst.

 

Equivalence Ratio is the ratio of actual Fuel Air Ratio to Stoichiometric Fuel Air Ratio; it provides an intuitive way to express richer mixtures. Lambda is the ratio of actual Air Fuel Ratio to Stoichiometric Air Fuel Ratio; it provides an intuitive way to express leanness conditions (i.e., less fuel, less rich) mixtures of fuel and air.

 

As you can see from the table shown above this section, the ideal target AFR´s under boost for both gasoline and E85 are listed. For gasoline it's 13.23-12.5, and for E85 it's 8.47-6.975. However, with E85 you will not need to richen the mixture under WOT/boost as far as 6.975 or beyond. It does not need to be proportionally richer when compared to gasoline.

 

Why? Again, Because the fuel has a cooling effect on the intake charge and the space in which the combustion occurs. And at such a low AFR as 9.765 (lambda=1 on E85) or lower the fuel cools pretty good, don’t you think so?

 

Many people with some experience in mapping an ECU for use with E85 says that as high AFR as 8.5 or lambda=0.80-0.85 works well. No need to go to the extreme end of the useable scale to get safe power. It only uses a lot of fuel without giving any benefits.

 

E85 burns faster than gasoline at best mixtures so it is an inherently more efficient fuel. It also produces more exhaust gas for a give weight of fuel air mix giving higher average cylinder pressures in spite of lower EGT's. With straight E85 in a properly tuned car its good for about +5% power / torque increase. I suspect on a turbocharged car the benefit is larger.

 

Since you don't have to richen the mixture as many percent (proportionally) as you have to on gasoline, you can make more power without having to use as much fuel.

 

How does ignition timing change on E85 ?

Timing on ethanol blends will not change very much. MBT timing for both gasoline and E85 are very nearly the same at light to moderate engine loads. At high engine load the E85 will want just slightly more advance. The big difference will be fuel/air mixture. The E85 will give improved torque with much richer mixtures than gasoline. Both gasoline and E85 will give best thermal efficiency at about 15% rich of stoich, so the equivalent of 12.78:1 on gasoline would be about 8.5:1 on E85, but E85 will continue to give better torque numbers up to about +40% rich of stoich or 7:1 mixtures.

 

So basically 7.0 - 8.5 is a decent range.  I usually shoot for right around the 8.0 mark.  Though, of course, a dyno would help tune from that point to squeak out every last pony from your specific setup.  Also, as pointed out, there is also no need to go "extra rich for safety" with ethanol.  The high octane and enhanced cooling properties of E85 help offset that.

 

Anyway, let us know how the project progresses.

 

We have set the stoich at Summer Blend 9.85:1 and the Open Loop EQ ratio at 1.153 for around 8.5:1.  I tried 1.24 EQ and the power dropped significantly.  My dyno is my rear tires.  If I can light em up at 40mph with 1/2 throttle in 1st gear, its just about right.  What a completely different motor.  Our previous Katech motor was done with the same cam on 110 LSA and stock 11:1 CR.  After my tuning, this car is making right at 645 HP and should be ready for the next stage. 

 

The ZR1 is 300 lbs heavier than our car, and with the SC at 1 bar, it will heat soak bigtime.  Two weeks ago our car was road racing with #2 Corvette Racing Team driver Johnny O'Connell driving it.  I almost upchucked after riding with him.

 

Imagine drifting a Z06 with full thottle out of turn jolts at around 80 mph in second.  The water temp after 3 hot laps was 187F, the oil temp 215F.  Amazing.

 

The car has been two years in the works, and Katech did not want to do it in 2006.  I finally got them to do this after the Corvette GT1 C6.Rs starting running E85, and of course Jay Leno got them to do his C6.RS Pratt and Miller car on E85.  Jay is a friend of mine from years ago, and he is a spoiled brat.  A genuine nice guy?  Yep, exactly the same in person.

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