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FFV vs EV

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It is true the consumer is not able to purchase an E85 hybrid vehicle at this time.  Ford has produced E85 Escape Hybrid vehicles "for real world testing" since 2007 and the current (22) PHEV Escape vehicles in real world testing are E85 capable.  Is it for a lack of political and/or consumer demand for these vehicles that consumers can not purchase them in 2010 and 2011?

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I think stop'n go driving with a fuel that doesn't produce as much heat and runs less often due to EV mode, and potentially results in water-contaminated oil, is one of their concerns.

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I think stop'n go driving with a fuel that doesn't produce as much heat and runs less often due to EV mode, and potentially results in water-contaminated oil, is one of their concerns.

 

Perhaps- the better choice might be the EV such as the Volt that depletes battery first then runs constant on the IC vs a hybrid that intermittantly uses the IC. However even drag racers running on E85 who are dumping huge amounts of fuel (think serious cooling effect here) never report "milking" the oil unless they are way over-rich in their tune- many run the whole season on it and that is with water temps starting the run at 160 and not exceeding 180 at the run's end . On methanol this is a far bigger issue- many change oil every race. As much as anything else the hold up on hybrid FFV's is likely the incremental cost increase of the "flex tune" and the efficiency issue with  all the short cycles of cold start enrichment.

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I've had water in my full synthetic oil with 15k miles (didn't intend to go that long) and mineral deposits at 10k miles. Will go with 8k next time. Guess I live too close to work.

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Wikipedia tidbits

 

Leaf: $33k price

Range 100 miles

EPA rated 73 miles

Real life 47 to 138 miles

The battery and control module together weigh 660 lb (thought vehicle weight was important?)

Manufacturers battery cost estimate $9,000 (this is their cost, retail 2x?)

On-board 120v x 12a max charger  = 20 hours starting from full discharge

220v x 5.2 kw max purchased charger = 8 hours

 

Nissan warns that if fast charging could effect the normal and gradual battery capacity loss about 10 percent more.

 

Consumer Reports noted at-home charger and its installation, even the simple installations cost more than US$2,000. Nissan estimates a typical charger installation will cost US$2,200.

 

-end-

 

Zero emissions. What? I thought coal the most disgusting fuel upon the planet?

 

The battery is consumed is it not? It has a consumption lifespan per mile and chuck full of rare heavy metals. The battery IS part of the fuel; it’s not part of the motor.

 

If EPA is going to trick up the emissions for battery car, might I suggest an ethanol engine driving a generator. This electric drive car should be zero emissions and a whale better than EV coal to steam, to steam turbine, to grid, to battery charger, to battery.

 

How about our dependence on foreign oil? Are we better off depending on rare metals in foreign countries? China announced export controls over the world supply of some precious metals to much concern within the battery and electronics industries as well as national security.

 

Per the manufacturers estimated cost, it appears Nissan is not passing on the normal markup retail costs of battery to customers. Like Honda’s attempt to popularize their R&D efforts upon hybrid technology they chose to lose money on early sales to propel marketing. The EV battery "normal market" costs may be $18k to replace and probably replaced a lot sooner than 10 years if one desires decent battery range. My guess the customer is paying or will soon pay $20k for ability to tap grid power for $3 to $4 fill up to travel 50 to 130 miles. And do so while suffering a frequent long delay and hassle recharge.

 

ROI for a $20k investment with a 10 year life better be more than $300 per month. How much is the fuel savings?

 

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You know, no one speaks of the illegal trade that will blossom upon precious battery minerals and product. A blossoming battery cartel or battery lords. How many tyrants in power if discovering precious lithium, nickel, copper, etc. upon homeland. How many car jacks if criminals discover a particular auto has an easy $15,000 item bolted underneath? Heck, were presently suffering crime and auto damages over $300 to $1,200 catalytic converter theft. The Leaf won’t be able to park on public streets nor unguarded garages. Where is the EPA indirect crime formula for this or is it totally a wildlife and environment calculation?

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How many car jacks if criminals discover a particular auto has an easy $15,000 item bolted underneath?

 

Morning Flee...Um yeah I think it's going to be a bit more difficult that just removing  a couple bolts.. prabably on par with thieves stealimng engines..

 

 

 

BTW..those Batteries are not dead after 10 years ..they still have over 70% of their charge capabilities..from what I have been reading those batteries are going to be re-purposed for everything from home solar to Hospital Backups..(which almost all major hospials alreay have huge battery backup systems)

 

Granted there is No perfect fuel...they all have their own issues..

 

 

I still like Trash to Ethanol as the fuel with the least "issues" and with the most upside including the ever important  "image"

 

 

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Zero emissions. What? I thought coal the most disgusting fuel upon the planet?

 

Not hard to understand, the leaf has no emissions. Take your probe and check all around the vehicle... none. No denying that coal plants do, but that's not a Leaf or Nissan problem and no hard work by Nissan's engineers can decrease that.

 

Many people who drive electric cars have an agenda, which often includes wind or solar power. North Dakota has one of the largest wind farms not far from here.

 

Coal might be dirty, but most gas vehicles emit more than coal power plants.

 

Not every power plant is coal. Don't forget, many people get power from hydroelectric, which might be controversial for other reasons, but has no direct emissions.

 

Just read where Oregon's only coal plant has it's last day set, granted it's not this year and several Minnesota coal plants are being converted to natural gas.

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How many car jacks if criminals discover a particular auto has an easy $15,000 item bolted underneath?

 

Morning Flee...Um yeah I think it's going to be a bit more difficult that just removing  a couple bolts.. prabably on par with thieves stealimng engines..

 

They use the same jack to remove HV batteries as engines and the ones I've seen are removed from the cargo area up, not from under it.

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Still think an unfair evaluation of EV vs FFV per EPA/ environmentalist. Battery car gets all the breaks just because the generation of energy is remote. No reality check of real emissions or international impact such as ethanol per IDLU.

Read the articles on ethanol future and acronyms and comments such as CARB, ILUC penalties, ethanol industry is calling for EPA to also reevaluate its modeling of lifecycle GHG emissions, changes to the California LCFS analysis, water use, energy return, etc. Read the articles on EV and find the ultimate solution with pictorials of flowers, happy mammals trotting about, polar bears giving high fives, and article after article of easy and near term promising future. Within reality none of it true. Our grid will take trillions of taxpayer money to accommodate wind energy and vehicle power.  Wind and solar will make up a small portion of electrical generation for decades and will be the most expensive option.

 

Over the last 50 years our annual use of electricity increased 5%, the last few decades we managed to cut the increase in half to 2% per year. What will the electric vehicle do to electric usage? Electrical grid power fuel source for ’08 coal 49%, natural gas 22%, oil 2% or in other words close to three quarters of electricity produced by fossil fuel, you know the EV fuel. Now, nuclear 19% and hydro 6% a wonderful fuel. The 2% non-hydro renewable category not worth mentioning.

 

Global energy sectors of CO2 emissions:  electricity generation 2x the total of all others, cement production the next largest generation, then road transportation, and way down the list deforestation.  So, appears to me the EV is the short term problem and FFV the solution.

http://www.pewclimate.org/technology/overview/electricity

 

I do like EV vehicles and support the development, just way to much attention and national resources consumed upon a very long term solution. Near term battery car futures have been promised to public for decades and for decades the technology not up to the task. Long terms solutions have a habit of fizzling per reality. Small golf cart vehicle class good for metro use and a bunch more convenient than public transportation. May the regulators allow such? A low regulation lightweight 45 mph metro EV class vehicle that would greatly impact international pollution since affordable.

 

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