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Alt Energy = wind

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The left has abandoned ethanol as any serious environmental solution. They appear not to be interested. Just a few minutes ago a NPR Diane Rheem show on Gulf Oil spill. Hour one had an API representative whom mostly muzzled and two environmentalists. Mostly the show dedicated to damming off shore oil production even with the reality of how dependant for years we will be and the spill rate of .001%. Often the voice heard to push to alternative energy….that would be wind energy.  Oil companies should revert their assets to alternative energy…..that would be wind energy.  No mention of ethanol during the one hour broadcast. Ethanol didn't even come up as an investment made within oil companies as defense of no interests within alternative energy. Wind energy THE only solution. Some one threw in solar and geo thermal once. But, again and again wind energy the future. That would mean the battery car for transportation needs. It appears the rich will have battery cars and the less rich forced to the bus.

 

Same thing with NPR Science Friday, another favorite of the left environmentalist. Last Friday's episode dedicated to transportation fuel alternatives. Ethanol was the prime event. Hardly any discussion other than negative of corn ethanol. EPA spokesmen the coordinator or sieve for reviewing the incoming information for the show.  This the answer man to inform us of proper technology to embrace. Seems indirect land use the reason farm land a bad choice for energy crops as more forest land to be chopped down to farm land if we use corn ethanol. A nice simple analysis for the common people to easily accept or understand why corn ethanol so bad, besides we all know farm land is for food. Second generation cellulose ethanol a good environmental fuel, but it will always cost more than corn ethanol and has hosts of problems to solve. Same with algae ethanol, even greater problems. So, the only economical viable ethanol production system to date should be throttled and a holding pattern on the rest. Per this EPA magic answer guy, ethanol plants that utilize cellulose more green as electricity, coal, natural gas, all fossil fuels. So, appears cellulose could be utilized NOW for powering ethanol plants with steam and electricity. The gasification technology with co generation micro turbine of electricity , heat and steam.

 

I don't believe ethanol is going to be the focus of the Green movement. Guess we better learn to be self reliant.

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I was wondering if most view ethanol as a blending agent for gasoline, so not really an alternative energy. Like ethanol doesn’t work unless petro is their supporting it? Wind a true break from fossil fuel? Do they believe wind energy is “free”? Ha, like Public Education is magically “free”. I think the general public fickle and have a romantic image of free energy upon a gentle breeze. That all energy problems and pollution will go away upon some huge federal spending program to mass production. They claim sunshine, wind, earth heat, and wave motion free energy. Well, oil and ethanol also free as both generated by solar and have gain their energy by free solar. Right. Reminds me of Tom Cruize customer who wanted to cut through the BS and simply replied “show me the money!” 

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It's becoming apparent, EPA holds the fate of  energy production. They hold winner status and loser status per their scientist review per global warming gases. Note, this is a very dangerous, to have that much power within one federal agency. Every committee, business, agency, department, City, or School board is political. It's just a natural development. The EPA lacks checks and balances. Scientist are no different upon political corruption influence than the average citizen. Very easy to bias data to their personal and shared  truths or desires. Their hiring practices probably equally contaminated with this subtle prejudice. Very easy to make bad assumptions. I think we created a monster regulation agency not accountable to the public. They appear to hide and be empowered upon politics another bad development.

 

But reality and facts a stubborn thing. Ethanol continues to plow ahead with production improvements. I believe the public will eventually get it and gradually win more advocates. The petrol auto connection appears to be broken. Were getting automotive technology to exploit more ethanol advantages with ensuing consumer promotions. Race sports are changing to more ethanol. I would think farm equipment to change. The cost savings and price spread to the general driving public should motivate more to test E85 fuel.

 

Wish the regulation industry would have merely put to a watch list the possible environmental problem IF forests were cut down to farmland as this is such a wild guess no empirical accurate data, just a projection and assumption. That if such were to happen with corn ethanol, EPA to regulate.

 

Maybe the industry could attack the foundation of ILU negatives with self regulation. Meaning register acres of ethanol production like sometimes the fruit juice industry. Welsh does this.

 

Also, appears EPA looks very positive to ethanol plants that utilize non grid electric coal power and natural gas energy sources. Also, note the gasification technology with micro turbine electric power generation co-generating steam and heat one of the most efficient and cost affective systems available. So, if the ethanol producers can use process waste steam cellulose? With local purchases of cellulose and to be a net exporter of electric....that would be a very positive "green" development. Also, may these ethanol plants be located upon some good wind energy? Great PR to attract more of the powerful "Green" lobby. I know it takes money, something in short supply nowadays. But, may this attract investors and federal guarantees?

 

It is more efficient per btu (energy production) to burn cellulose as compared to process to transportation fuel. Meaning we lose nothing by burning cellulose to make corn ethanol plants more attractive. This low teck cellulose energy process very attractive. We should exploit this process. I know natural gas is so cheap right now, hard to justify, except for the advantage to attract more "green" press and promotion. If a typical ethanol plant become net exporters of alternative electric power. Well, this would be a water shed event to acceptance of grain ethanol? 

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"Also, appears EPA looks very positive to ethanol plants that utilize non grid electric coal power and natural gas energy sources."

 

That should read......EPA looks very positive to ethanol plants that utilize non grid power as grid power mostly coal energy.  EPA looks very positive to burning cellulose for heat, in lieu of natural gas.

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It is attractive to power ethanol plants with cellulose. First very efficient as the grid has transformer and line loss. The efficiency of internal to ethanol plant combustion of cellulose is huge as all the energy absorbed. The utilization of heat energy complete, especially within a plant that has can make such good use of low grade heat to dry DG, heat process water, and the distillation processes. Also, since the plant turbine can generate power almost as efficient as large power houses, a very attractive. The heat stream from the combustion process hardly affected by the turbine. Meaning close to free energy.

 

Cellulosic ethanol has some problems to overcome. It will be a long road to financial viability. Feed stocks will not be free, about as expensive as hay. The processing more complicated and more expensive as compared to grain ethanol. We gave a chicken and egg scenario going on with supply demand. So, it would be advantageous for current ethanol plants to start the ball rolling with purchases of bio-mass for plant energy needs. Locally produced bio-mass have an attractive cost per btu in theory. Hopefully, the supply chain problems can me minimized to make it so. But, this learning curve would be required  for the supposed coming cellulosic ethanol. Nice to start the learning process now.

 

We better be careful of the future of ethanol as the powerful Green lobby wants wind turbines and wants everyone to equate green with batteries and wind turbine power. They appear not to defend ethanol as part of the solution. That’s what I’m picking up from their shows. You review the actual  energy needs of strong economic nation and most understand oil, coal, nuclear, all of it will make a contribution. But, we have a very strong political power upon our shores that will have none of that. Per their opinion, that’s a distraction as well as ethanol? My opinion when monitoring their talk shows.  They will not compromise. Ethanol caught between big oil and powerful political force that trying to man handle big oil to wind turbines. Hopefully, I think this is the case, reality will do the compromising once the cost supply pain hits general public. 

 

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Michigan has a scary public utility commission mandate to achieve required portion of grid power form "green" energy no matter the cost. The high cost of green energy simply blended into the overall cost of power. The consumer has no choice, but cough up the extra bucks (isn't this a tricky tax). This burden on a state with huge financial struggles upon its residents. Doesn't sound like a smart move to me? Anyways, these utilities scratching their head trying to figure out the cheapest way to accomplish. You know what I'm getting at.....have the ethanol plants cooperate with utility companies for grid power generation. Bio-mass production of electricity is considered green power. Now, they only talk of solar and wind upon talk shows, but bio-mass is still defined as green energy. They pay big bucks for production of green energy. A hot air turbine could produce lots of it. For years a Midland utility plant has been burning wood chips upon gasification process for turbine power. They have been doing it economically for years, "Consumers power, I think".  About the only real green power contribution to date. Some wind mill power, but that is insignificant so far.  The off shore wind, huge, but many a public acceptance hurdle.

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Been searching internet for green, renewable, and alternative energy....ethanol doesn't come up much. Mostly wind and solar.

 

A discussion of marketing this solar and wind energy to appeal to masses. They change lexicon to "Clean energy" as the proper choice (to the green movement) is upon the air and sunshine. This will differentiate themselves from dirty soil, earth fuel, or dangerous nuclear. You see these energy suppliers had hacked their terminology and presented themselves to renewable, green, and alternative. Some our claiming natural gas renewable because of the bio reactors production.  If you search out ethanol web site specific much excitement on the environmental advantages compared to oil. If you search out Green websites not so much.

 

This the point of posting. The Green movement mostly abandoned ethanol. Now, these folks have a poor record of supplying energy needs of a thriving economic nation to date, but they are determined to regulate and legislate to make it happen at any burden.....to save the planet and keep food on the table. Just to valuable to allow the fickle open market to establish best choice.  Commoners just to ignorant to trust.....better roll over and allow the elites to force and guide us as they have omnipotent power.  We don't want to get to full of ourselves and think we have a voice is such important matters.

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Sorry to interrupt, not sure if anyone else was allowed to post on this thread ;) ;D

 

But you do have a point, a few years back, the "greenies" (of which I consider myself for the most part to be), used to be big on ethanol.  Now that fickle "flavor of the week" has passed, and we are part of the problem, possibly worse then oil or coal, starving babies in Africa...

 

As a very conservative friend of mine likes to say "a true conservative, is by nature a conservationist", use what you have wisely, and don't use what you don't need to.

 

Oil is a limited finite resource that we need.  Burning it with complete abandon, is short sighted and painting our decedents into a tight corner with few options.  I believe that increased use of ethanol (renewable) to replace, or at least reduce our overuse of oil (non-renewable), is a very wise decision.

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Very true. Ethanol has a tremendous impact on the economy and environment. It really doesn't get near the credit it should. Just ten percent ethanol upon the gasoline market has big impact on dampening run away gas prices. Same with environment. Auto companies seem to understand they have a dog in the fight in supporting ethanol as a better future fuel. I believe U.S. automotive thinks small battery cars may just be the ticket imports need to overtake all the U.S. market. They had a sweet spot within luxurious overpriced SUV's within the international market. What would the result if this

profitable auto line regulated to E85 only status? Probably a BIG difference upon economy and ethanol acceptance.

 

You do have courage to post. It must be human nature to attack or become angry with those that do not always track to CW or popular culture. To offer up alternative viewpoints getting dangerous to public image. We have less and less freedoms to do so. Our culture is less tolerant unless the tolerance politically acceptable and empowering then its a badge of courage to spout the mantra. This the track of our country and educational complexes. Our politics very organized. We argue way to much of politics and empowering politics wherein no solutions lie. Like Nero fiddling while Rome burns.  Maybe Michigan the epi center of this mischief. We have a boatload of nonsense here. I would like to think since we have all suffered economically the public would open up from traditional political biases. No, don't see any of that. Just a doubling down of political solutions and lots of excuses. Our Governor really fed into this pollution. Obama very impressed with Governor Grandholms operations. Scares me.

 

I don't see many cost effective solutions for energy that are green other than ethanol. The fuel would make auto ownership still the dream of Americans even low income. These other green solutions would impact standard of living, push it south, and force a lot of citizens to rely on public transportation. That would be a horrible development. PBS has lots of societal change shows with glowing friendly public loading up the light railway with poor evidence of economic revival and happiness of citizens.  It's just once sided propaganda to put fairy plum visions in minds of the youth. It would be easier to just invent small low speed person transports within conventional technology. Minimal regs that would dramatically make them affordable.

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Obama very impressed with Governor Grandholms operations. Scares me.

 

 

 

Maybe because your Governor is on the right path.. investing in the future generally costs more up front.

 

Using ethanol to power utilities companies is frankly makes little sense  for a multitude of reasons... # 1 is it's difficult eough to get ethanol into vehicles let alone for generating electricity ..

 

Wind and Solar are the best 2 options for stability in the Grid..hands down the best.. there is no other option that is as safe and environmentally "acceptable"..  Nuclear is great for long term cheap power..but the security risks are enormous..

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