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fleebut

Tire Pressure, Origin of TPMS, Big Government, Big Oil, Hitler and Nazis

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TPMS systems utilize sensors within tire at valve stem or strapped to inside of rim. Battery powered sensors radio broadcast to auto CU. These sensors about 2 psi accurate or better.  Simpler systems just analyze difference within tire rotation per the anti-loc brake sensor and compare data to other wheels. Lower pressure tires actually a bit smaller in diameter. This is a crude method only able to gauge 8-14 psi change.

 

TPMS systems mandatory on all production vehicles since ’08, sold in U.S. per NHTSA that requires a 25% pressure standard. I found a beautiful statistical analysis of all factors to society. Death rates, medical cost to society, production costs, maintenance cost, variability, mpg improvements, tread life improvement, failure rate risk and cost, etc.. The average Joe would be amazed as this “study” so complete. Problem is this analytical study much like the rest of detailed and most scrutinized of the modeling statistical studies (Global Warming or CARB) just wild ass guesses. It’s true. My statistical training and practice rudimentary, but nonetheless enough. Within reality of real life conditions stats only one of many tools to make an intelligent assessment of problem. Sometimes an impressive tool, but mostly a tool to be constrained within the simplest of problems as you can not infer any accuracy with large complex problems as mostly the inputs are wild ass guesses. IOW like some accuracy gained upon approximations by running your calculator out to 100 decimal places.

 

This stat study had cost of TPMS at $70 per car, well that MAY have been direct manufacturing cost, but actual cost with engineering, product support, employee training, legal liability, guarantee cost, etc would be a magnitude higher. And the cost to consumer is usually double the real manufacturing cost. You see these costs hard to estimate, so they just assume these cost will go magically away and buried deep out of site. The maintenance cost were like wise nutty with optimism and forgot the variable burdens.

 

This statistical study made no comparison to simply have better consumer info and training, that in long run still needed as automatic systems fail. No life risk issues with old cars operation. They assume people repair cars per proper procedures and consumers care not of operating expense. Within reality consumers don’t even fix air bags on their own dime if no insurance as they are too expensive. My daughter last week was helping a student who had a young daughter, who had run out of gas with her car. This car had no operating instrumentation. No mph, no fuel gauge, no temperature….but it was a most expensive progressive car when new.  I've seen older cars with just front brakes as the high tec anti-loc quit working years ago. The operator just to concerned with paying off the credit card companies.

 

Personally, I am appalled at government intrusion in our personal life choices. They use safety as an excuse.  They take intelligent consumer choice away as they believe you folks can't be trusted.

 

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In general, our society over rates intelligence and discounts wisdom. We foolishly believe some magic formula able to see things we don’t understand or don’t know upon hard science. We have a tire pressure problem within motoring public. So, we run to horribly costly and within reality less effective federal mandates. We foolishly believe technology will protect us more than wisdom. That society can not change only Federal government can protect. Give up choice, we are pathetic creatures.

 

Why are we spending fortunes to circumvent the real problem? Maybe it would be better to invest in society, to make us more self reliant and wise. That has benefits all over the place and better payoff, making us happier. We impress ourselves by handing someone a fish, yet don’t trust them to fish themselves. Capice?

 

How about w/o any hard regs, to merely suggest to automotive to make a storage place for a quality tire air gauge. Something of value with a little booklet on savings and benefits attached. Maybe award a small grant with ensuing PR for accomplishments. Even auto dealers get into act with a fun game to deflate a tire on an auto purchase and require the purchaser to pass the tire check and air up test. A one minute presentation and formal test with signatures of achievement with nice prize and hand clapping. This a natural for sales. May this problem and solution be included in driver license test and behind the wheel test? You know the student has to check the tires and properly air up the low one. How about the same for gas stations to award small grant and PR for placing air lines or small fee electric air pumps within station. Maybe automotive do away with cumbersome tire stem caps. How about a gas station roadway to have flush air lines on passenger side. No hassle with air hose? How about a 12v small portable air pump within auto glove box? Maybe inquire to consumers what they dislike of airing up tires and find the hassle of strewing lines or hoses with loud noise objectionable or the availability of air pumps. Solutions then to produce quiet 12v air pump with internal air gauge able to plug in by tire. Train the kids and give them a shiny quarter.  Why do we always empower the federal regulators? 

 

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Maybe it would be better to invest in society, to make us more self reliant and wise.

 

 

ahhhh... but then a self reliant and wise society would not NEED a big government, and would be able to realize when they were being duped... there in my dear Watson lies the answer you your query.  ;)

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HF, would you suggest that Big Gov is our crack dealer...?  ;)

 

I do admit that I see some positives that come by the projects that government does in regards to alternative energy, as without it the market forces (not FREE markets, mind you, but the forces that be) would delay the alternatives until a later time.  Subsidized fossil fuels, without subsidies for the alternatives, leads to longer use of fossil fuels.

 

However, if Big Gov got out of energy altogether, including protecting it, then alternatives would have long ago had the upper hand.

 

Big Gov is the problem that so many turn to for fixing the symptoms.

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I cannot see anything more than detriment (dumbing down society) to requiring auto pressure sensing on normal tires--HOWEVER- the now fairly common ultra low profile tires have very little air volume in them thus can lose enough pressure in 2 weeks on a good tire/rim to set the alarm. These tires cannot not be simply viewed, firmly pressed with foot into tire edge, or due to small target area- rapped with a mallet like truck tires to detect a tire 10 # low. You have to use a proper guage. This is an issue on my Saab with it's 17" rims and 160 mph speed rated tires. For liability reasons even the tire dealer required the car to come back for rim re-torque after 200 miles.

 

The rules are all about liability, consumer protection, and product safety. Car companies may have even willingly participated (think Ford Exploder rollovers with slightly underinflated tires). Fleebut- you are right though in that the next liability comes in the form of a dumbed down society who hires lawyers to point out the devices failed or that the consumer did not want to pay for new sensors at 100,000 miles, ignored the warnings, had a serious crash, and then wants the rest of us to pay for it.

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Product liability law changed back some decades, making it very risky and expensive to offer new products to consumers.  Laws that act to provide maternal responsibility and unlimited liability.  If a citizen gets hurt, it must be some ones responsibility (other than the operator with the most power and control). The law makes business either operate lean w/o assets or bulk up to giant Corp status with a lair of Lawyers ready to defend and cover tracks.  Within current business climate GM, Ford, and Chrysler should have joined to Mega Corp power. One division stationed upon D.C. to staff the lobbyist and coordinate the contributions,  one division dedicated to conformance costs and legal liabilities, and the third division fighting labor and public opinion.  To increase operation efficiency they can work on their car projects during slack time, but since minimal time for such, probably best to off shore the dirty work of making autos.

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LOL - starting to wonder if we need to amend Godwin's Law (wiki) for this forum to replace "Nazi's" or "Hitler" with "Big Oil" or "Big Government".

 

The original question was how to tell if one tire gauge is accurate compared to another.  By the third post, we have a 5 paragraph dissertation on the origin of TPMS as it relates to global warming, the 'average joe' and government intrusion.  Then things spiral downward from there.

 

I'm probably guilty, too - but just wanted to take a second to remind all of us to try to stick to the subject and answer questions directly and concisely as possible and save the ramblings for off topic / politics.

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Don't rely on your TPMS system. For safety inspect your tires. Automatic system will fail, so don't bet your life on them. At best these systems no more accurate than normal tire pressure gauges at worst just a wild guess.

 

They are a handy gadget and delightful to have automatic systems to monitor tire pressure, but spiral thinking would infer not the responsibility of federal regulators to mandate such change. The reason; regulations cost money and the auto operator will be fooled into relying on these fallible systems. Better to educate yourself and and not rely on them. 

 

We could enjoy TPMS as a optional equipment and decide for ourselves if it's worth the cost/benefit. High value market wouldn't think twice. The value shopper wouldn't appreciate the extra cost nor complexity to repair.  You can be assured, once a mandate, regulated, the liability goes up. So does record keeping, inspection, etc. The cost is magnitude higher and forced upon all.

 

Ask yourself why does safety equipment carry the most legal liability? Why does EPA, or any other approved device have the cost go through the roof? After all if it were affordable....more lives saved, right. 

 

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I suspect that seat belts got a similar reception when first enacted....  :confused:

 

I heard that Medicare wasn't received well initially, now people complain if it's changed.

 

I don't have a problem with TPMS, I'm on my second vehicle with it. The first one was fussy if one of the tires (including the spare) was low. Have had no issues with the second. Neither vehicle did anything except tell me if one of the tires was low.

 

OTOH, low tire pressure was partially responsible for all those Ford/Firestone accidents. (The other was their soft suspension and high center of gravity.)

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But, how much is it worth to you? The benefit? The height of problem was during the popularity craze of heavy SUV's. Do we even have a problem anymore, of any significance? Those SUV's high center of gravity and running on passenger tires not a good combination. I think the TPMS technology clever and a wonderful option. This technology would be less expensive if regulators just butt out. Some consumers would automatically purchase, but we should not prevent others from opting out. You see, modern day regulatory or politics will seize upon developing technology. They see it could save lives. Then they run in front of the marching band to claim credit for saving lives. The technology would have found it's way naturally within appropriate timing on it's own. Ralph Nader makes fame and fortune blasting auto companies, a conspiracy to kill us. He has no benevolent understanding....he exploiting fears and utilizing the free market to sell his trade. 

 

Some motor cycle drivers do not like helmets. Now, motorcycles do not have seat belts air bags etc. Should we out law this activity? It's safer in a bus. Walking upon roadway has the highest fatality rate per mile. Horsepower kills, diy motor repair not a dependable, teenagers have more accidents, etc. You see, we allow freedoms even if risky, its American to have choice. 

 

The Jeep killed many with high center and loss of stability with no control. When a short wheel base 4x4 loses traction they really lose control. Up north we used to call them killing machines as the rich Chicago crowd would buy up their retirement estate and include it with cute shiny Jeep in front yard. The kids would eventually have severe accident. Usually running into ditch, steering back and flipping. Tire pressure was not an issue, the vehicle just naturally unstable. They tried to run them like cars.  My cousin died, at 30 something way back. Left lots of kids...it had nothing to do with tire pressure but a Jeep. An average of 114 people die each day in car crashes, 20,000 people die from the flu and its complications every year and 15,517 murders in 2000. So, the mandate estimates 90 fatalities prevented with $70/vehicle cost. That cost is not close to the real cost and 90 taint nothing but a guess. What if the customer was allowed to spend their own money on their own personal priorities? Might they save more lives within the 300 million living in U.S.. 

 

 

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