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fleebut

Big Ethanol or Small ethanol?

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From my few months contributing to the board have discovered many are outraged upon "Big Oil". Referred to by conspiracy and all powerful adjectives. That if Henry Ford had his way we would all be riding home grown ethanol autos; the world being at peace and happy. I will offer you the thought that even if ethanol, way back then, replaced oil, our world would be much the same. You see History wrought with powerful people exploiting opportunity, wealth, and power where it be Hitler, Standard oil, or Castro. IOWs we would be carping about "Big Ethanol", instead. Now for those of you not blinded by the darkness, my ideals exactly like most of U.S.. Meaning clean environment and quality of life very high priority, but how to acheive that's the question. Most have horrible biases, thanks to the typically propaganda crews. Most devalue or unaware of accurate history. The importance and constructive power of capitalism forces upon our history. Within reality,  no bigger friend of the poor, suppressed, and in general the happiness of populace than free open market trading . Consumers armed with good consumer info and voting with hard earned money a beautiful thing. Actually, a legal, wild west show of open market competition would be a sight. You would see a revolution of ideas and satisfied population. A creative entrepreneur, the creative juice to quickly fill wants and desires in a timely manner. So, you say, profit is evil only attainable with dirty deeds, trickery, exploitation of working class, and polluting environment. Well, I say some of that is all true but the corruption or cheating has little to do with fair open market competition. It has more to do with corrupt power brokers of government allowing such. And to that end as humanity will always corrupt a fair open market is temporary. That marketplaces should be policed. Managed as not to trick and confuse consumers with products offerings of little value such as marketing gimmicks and false claims. Lots of hard work required to maintain open markets, just government regulators a poor tool as they are usually asleep until the ____ hits the fan, then awaken to blame prior Administrations not awarding enough money to their cause. Like our pathetic Union Ed classroom....they only need ever more money to get it right. No, better to stimulate economics to self police with wary consumers. Sure, consumer testing, advice, info, training....but government need only look over shoulders, not be primary care giver. Why should government be in charge of what is best for us like an overgrown Nanny? Meaning to take our burger and fries away as the elitist think you shouldn't eat them. Is this good for quality of life? How about regulating horribly expensive autos so as to keep you safe. Would the poor just be driving old death traps instead of affording new cars?

 

Law of unintended consequence. Consider axing of coal industry where it is well known most of world will continue to burn coal. Burn coal upon horrible polluting plant technology. Would it be better if U.S. continued burning coal, but stimulating clean coal technology development? Would this be better for international pollution instead? Same with Nuclear. Better for U.S. to continue the technology to ensure best solutions. This is surely better than placing our head in sand and trying to manipulate world community away from an excellent source of energy. Same with Oil, were better for maintaining world technology for this energy sector.  And for ethanol.....what to do? How do we control the development? You know the elites all thinking on how to exploit ethanol for power and wealth.....even the enviro scientist are NOT above exploiting for extra income and fame. This goes back to open markets. The solution often to easy and as easily dismissed. For example was reading on Renergies web about a posting of controlling ethanol market to big suppliers. And when questioned on this requirement the owner replied the Carter 70's gasahol experiment suffered as the moonshine crew made the industry look bad with bad quallity. My guess, maybe a little of that, but that is what IBM said of Steve Jobs and that pathetic persoanl computer. I think what the owner really was thinking, but unable to post.....big government demands big business. Small business incapable of influence upon the oppressive government power brokers. Politicians that demand to be paid off. Scientist, lobbyist, consultants, news analysis all need the juice of D.C. political machine to make a name and riches for themselves. This doesn't happen unless much money gets spread about. The poor businessmen should stay home. You need a powerful lobby i.e. Unions, big agriculture, big government, or Big Oil for influence. So ethanol needs a powerful lobby or to hook up with such. An interesting side note I was researching recently Bed and Breakfast business. The author stated of the huge tax load levied on these business, that it's a good thing. The author wrote in P.C. format but what I will paraphrase for simplicity.....paying a higher taxes will grantee your business won't become illegal. Wow, do you realize the power of government to corrupt society. This the stuff tyrants practice....pay to play. I have been a Landlord for decades and know this is true. Our big governments squeezing Mom and Pop owners to obsolescence as they can't get a seat upon the big money influence chair of fairness. A Landlord would be arrested for what Bankers get away with. Why is that. The financial sector number one contributor to the D.C. machine.

 

I will propose to you, if our country was one half of the capitalistic open market system it was upon long ago history. You know the juice the propelled the country to most wealthy status...we would have thousands of small ethanol plants peppered about countryside currently. If not for the crippling regulations, many a farmera would have skid mounted ethanol plants within the tractor barn. Technology would be ramped up with huge private investors flooding market trying to make a scheckle upon the opportunity. Technology is no problem upon small scale, actually easier. Mass production of factory constructed skid mounted, truck delivered processing plants easily automated. Farmers or neighbors working together to align themselves within community needs. Local gas stations would have freedoms to place underground storage tanks of ethanol and purchase non certified pumps. Local producers able to work with local merchants. Infrastructure supportive and informative. Change and risk minimize through open market competition. Conversely, are modern mindsets go aflame with some unregulated industry makes a mistake. Like its better to cripple change untill all the bureaucrats and parasites can have a go on what you should do. We need to certify, license, inspect, grant, politic, pontificate, journalise and of course throw the how thing to ravages to the department of mysterious Environmental Science. That won't be cheap as these folks are in big hurt to continue their careers and enjoy control. 

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BTW, environmentalist hate small business as they are problematic to regulate. Costly to control as small businesses have more freedoms or independence and usually high populations make it costly to inspect. The small quanity generators often exempt from their control. Private business have much latitude for decision making and usually fly under radar of the Washington types. Also, very hard to be hold up i.e. Rainbow Coalition Jessie style politics if the business doesn't support the value system of the left. Meaning offering advertisement upon the beauty or benefits of following the "proper" political playbook or maybe advertising and contribution dollars going to "proper" politics. Very clever the political system of control and power. Some of the resentment of small business, coming from the wealth they create and ability to enjoy some of the perks of business ownership. That creating wealth not all it's cracked up to be, as all education of Environmental science state the pollution problem unstoppable, unless we reduce population and wealth of citizens. So, the reason the hatred of the Octomom....she is polluting the environment. The reason sucessful small business resented as increasing standard of living just means more polluting air travel, bigger autos, and less reliance on government and the ensuing entrapment to politics and control. Go onto the leading environmental internet boards and discover how common this thinking is and understand why the far left hates ethanol.

 

Ethanol a potential competitor as It creates a low cost solution to energy problem as opposed to economy crushing debt burdens to flip entire energy sector to pathetic solutions. Solutions costing a bundle yet appear to be free as just spin in the breeze or sit upon sun bath. The environmentalist know their solution will work, heck even campfires worked for the ages. It will work, this they know,  we just need to adjust our life styles. First, public transportation will finally be popular as the standard of living will drop and the poor will be forced into a "green" transportation system. Auto ownership will be option only to rich as the hyper expensive low production autos "green". Most of the energy sector highly regulated and controlled as government made terrific investments and ensuing excuse to control. Housing will be increasingly government controlled as well. How about the increasingly popular federal subsidies of  Section 8 and the low cost government loan programs? But, the government investment has a price....ya government controls and regulations. The wealthy will have private homes, but smaller. The result more "green" living for planet earth. The Green political machine is just starting to be aware of threat ethanol presents to dreams. Notice less talk of cellulosic ethanol for ultimate solution. From my advantage point an ensuing power struggle for popular solutions to energy problems afoot. Big oil hasn't decided whether to attack ethanol or team up with ethanol to keep the liquid fuel infrastructure a solution. The environmentalist are flipping upon desirability of ethanol.

 

Better get your home production system in place for low cost transportation fuel. 

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The author stated of the huge tax load levied on these businesses, that it's a good thing. The author wrote in P.C. format but I will paraphrase for simplicity.....paying a higher taxes will guarantee your business won't become illegal. Wow, do you realize the power of government to corrupt society? This the stuff tyrants practice....pay to play. I have been a Landlord for decades and know this is true. Our big governments are squeezing Mom and Pop owners to obsolescence as they can't get a seat on the big money influence chair of fairness. A Landlord would be arrested for what Bankers get away with. Why is that? The financial sector is the number one contributor to the D.C. machine.

 

Yes!  Exactly!  I know this from my computer business.  As was revealed in one of Dan's latest threads (who doesn't get ethanol subsidies), Dell gets breaks for building computers, and I get nothing.  Dell is a big corporation with influence, and I have essentially no influence.  What Dan doesn't understand is that subsidies and big government automatically favor the very big corporations that he hates so much!  This happens because they can buy the favors of said big government a heck of a lot easier than a small business can.  As the government grows, so do the corporations, to the detriment of small business.  The only solution he, and all socialists, can see is to grow government even more.

 

Oh BTW, just a quick question, and no offence intended, but is English your first language fleebut?  I kind of cleaned up your quote above.  ;)

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I dont think you get it Rusty..YOU get subsidized to build computers as well ..everything you claim on your taxes for your business is a Subsidy.. You can also hire people with disabilities and..get a subsidy. You can get local/city township subsidies for locating to their business park and so on and so on..

 

As someone who is suppose to be a real capitalist you sure whine plenty about not getting any subsidies..err "breaks".. As a purest capitalist what the hell do you need breaks for ..start competing..build the computers offer great customer service and it all takes care of itself ..right

 

Surely Dell hasnt got anything on Rustys computer service  :D

 

There is no such thing as true Capitalism in the United States..never has been ..we have always subsidized business..giving big business "incentives"

 

 

.remember last week when the VP visited Saint Cloud..and spoke at the New Flyer Bus Company

 

New Flyer came to Saint Cloud around 10 years ago..New Flyer received State / County and City incentives to move here.. and we the people even built a new Industrial park and access to interstate 94 for them .. millions in subsidies .

 

St Cloud got in return a thousand new Jobs and a new tax base

 

 

What can Rustys Computer business offer where Feds, States , Citys should subsidize his business ?  What are you going to bring to the table in return?  That's what it boils down too

 

Right or wrong I'm just telling you that is the way it is..supported by the right and left

 

Lifes not Fair .. we cant change it ..fighting against the current is rather pointless..

 

 

 

The author stated of the huge tax load levied on these businesses, that it's a good thing. The author wrote in P.C. format but I will paraphrase for simplicity.....paying a higher taxes will guarantee your business won't become illegal. Wow, do you realize the power of government to corrupt society? This the stuff tyrants practice....pay to play. I have been a Landlord for decades and know this is true. Our big governments are squeezing Mom and Pop owners to obsolescence as they can't get a seat on the big money influence chair of fairness. A Landlord would be arrested for what Bankers get away with. Why is that? The financial sector is the number one contributor to the D.C. machine.

 

Yes!  Exactly!  I know this from my computer business.  As was revealed in one of Dan's latest threads (who doesn't get ethanol subsidies), Dell gets breaks for building computers, and I get nothing.  Dell is a big corporation with influence, and I have essentially no influence.  What Dan doesn't understand is that subsidies and big government automatically favor the very big corporations that he hates so much!  This happens because they can buy the favors of said big government a heck of a lot easier than a small business can.  As the government grows, so do the corporations, to the detriment of small business.  The only solution he, and all socialists, can see is to grow government even more.

 

Oh BTW, just a quick question, and no offence intended, but is English your first language fleebut?  I kind of cleaned up your quote above.  ;)

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You still don't get it.  I don't want subsidies.  What I want, more than anything, is for nobody to get subsidies!  Subsidies at all levels should be outlawed!  At the same time though, taxes should go down to nothing.

 

The only exception is international trade.  In that case, reciprocal trade tariffs should even things out and provide whatever money government needs.

 

Do I hire anybody?  No...  sole proprietorship here.  Half of it is knowing the laws!  Dell can hire lawyers to sort through it and extract everything from the government they possibly can.  I can't afford that.

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You aren't listening Rusty.. I am saying live in the REAL world.. no matter how much you rant subsidies aren't going anywheres..It has been like this forever..

 

There no Industries that dont get subsidies..'..it is just a fact of life

 

and YES YOU also get to participate in subsides via your tax right off.. and  no it doesn't take a lawyer.. if you cant do it yourself your Taxpreparer/CPA will tell you everything you can write off..

 

Here are some starter ideas for your "subsidies"

 

http://www.inc.com/articles/2002/02/18955.html

 

You still don't get it.  I don't want subsidies.  What I want, more than anything, is for nobody to get subsidies! 

 

 

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Oh I understand you about living in the real world.  That doesn't, however, preclude me from wanting for things to be different.  That goes back to the first amendment.  ;)

 

Thanks for the info.  Unfortunately, very little of it applies to me.  See, that's all about deductions.  My theory has always been, the more you deduct, the more likely you'll be audited.  See, taxes are really a large legalized protection racket.  You pay the protection money, the less likely you'll get beaten up.  Same with taxes.  You pay the taxes, the less likely you'll get audited and fined.  My theory has always been to deduct very little, only the things I'm absolutely sure about (which usually amounts to nothing).  That way if I'm ever audited, I can tell 'em to shove it since I didn't deduct anything in the first place.  That's what I call living in the real world.

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Bringing it back to ethanol for a minute, how would it look if someone were to show that ethanol could be profitable, on the small scale, without subsidies?  I think it could be done, after having read David Blume's book.

 

This all is not to say I'm opposed to ethanol subsidies in the current real world, with corn ethanol etc.  Yes Dan, they are necessary to offset the oil subsidies.  I've always qualified my "down with ethanol subsidies" comments with "as long as oil subsidies also go away."  We know of course that neither will ever happen until the USA is bankrupt.  :D

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Rusty, spot-on.  However, it could be a long delayed route to bankruptcy.  So long as we keep growing the population (the human assets of the U.S. treasury), there's always more gold to mine.  Especially if we keep the borders open and find a way to generate taxes from them, and of course their babies born here that get automatic citizenship (though never intended by the Constitution).  Heck, what's $2 Trillion when we can grow our populations another 100 million?!  Of course, the recent spike in spending will get us to bankruptcy sooner rather than later.  Remember-history shows that the government spends a lot less efficiently than Main Street and Wall Street.  The best stimulus almost always is to cut taxes, which of course leads to investment, job creation, and spending.  Proved time and time again.  Just how it is, sorry to those who disagree with facts and ignore history.

 

To add to that, the U.S. government already is bankrupt (unofficially).  It has borrowed too much and is in deficit.  However, since we can keep finding foolish nations to keep lending us money, we will just borrow our way out of debt.

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All--herein lies a keen example of having the government decide everything for us.  First, every industry selectively gets its subsidies.  Then, some are favored over others.  It gets particularly frustrating when one part of the government disagrees with another part; and the "scientists" put their own 2 cents in that differ in opinion.

 

So we have the U.S. government saying "Increase production of corn ethanol!"  Then we have CARB, the air regulator arm of CA's EPA saying that corn ethanol is worse for the air than gasoline.  The federal government will be subsidizing corn ethanol, while California and 11 other states now look set to try to phase it out.  Moreover, CARB has found somehow that plug-in electricity is less polluting than ethanol, even when 60% of it is lost in transmission...  Just think if we lost 60% of ethanol in transfer...   ???

 

So, if we scrapped all subsidies (including military protection for foreign oil which produces both liquid fuel and electricity), ethanol would come out a clear winner.  However, government cannot as easilly infringe power over the small producers and politicans likely wouldn't receive as much in campaign funds.

 

But instead here we have a deadlock on ethanol, because government became involved.  Government sees the $100's of Billions involved in transportation fuel and just can't seem to get past the power it can influence by continuing the oil subsidies while politicians receive $100,000's of lobbying funds.

 

Where in the world do we see all of this wreckless subsidizing allowed in the Constitution?  Hard lesson learned #757,489,357,805,703,975.  All to the taxpayer's (and those with lungs) detriment.

 

Relevant news articles out today:

 

http://www.agprofessional.com/show_story.php?id=57425

 

http://www.agprofessional.com/show_story.php?id=57434

 

http://www.foxbusiness.com/story/public-statement-vice-admiral-dennis-v-mcginn-regarding-truman-national/

 

(Guess someone must have ordered the above military man to retract his support...)

 

http://www.biofuelsjournal.com/articles/Truman_National_Security_Project_Petitions_CA_Gov__Schwarzenegger_to_Remove_Biofuels_Bias_From_State_s_Proposed_Low_Carbon_Fuel_Standard-73086.html

 

(While these retired military men are free to say what they like...)

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