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ngnetzky

Can he use E85, instead of M85?

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My friend just bought a used Ford Taurus (early 90's, I believe 95) that is a FFV, but it's M85 compatible. So my question to the wise forum members, can he use e85 in his vehicle instead of m85? There are no m85 refueling stations, but a handful of e85 refueling stations in the area, so using m85 is just simply not possible.

 

side note: i did not know Ford made FFV's this early.

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ngnetzky, a link I found states that it is not okay to put E85 in an M85 FFV.  However, it goes on to say that there may be a way to convert an M85 FFV to E85.

 

Link:

 

http://i-r-squared.blogspot.com/2006/06/e85-m85-or-gasoline.html

 

"Methanol

 

Methanol is the other liquid fuel that we can use in internal combustion engines. Like ethanol, it can be blended with 15% gasoline and distributed at the pump as M85. Flex fuel vehicles can be manufactured to use this blend. Flex fuel vehicles intended for E85 cannot use, however, M85 and vice versa. Car manufacturers, perhaps, may develop some small modifications to accommodate either fuel types or a mixture of ethanol/methanol blends with gasoline. "

 

FYI,

SacramentoE85

 

:rstar: :star: :bstar:

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I do not know about Ford's M85 FFV's but I do know of 2 Dodge Spirit M85 FFV's that have successfully used E85 w/o issues for over 2 years. There could potentially be issues however as the ideal seals for methanol are not always ideal for ethanol-- thus while it is unlikely issues will arise-- it is possible that Ford could have used a seal different than the Dodge Spirits that have done well on E85.

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My friend just bought a used Ford Taurus (early 90's, I believe 95) that is a FFV, but it's M85 compatible. So my question to the wise forum members, can he use e85 in his vehicle instead of m85? There are no m85 refueling stations, but a handful of e85 refueling stations in the area, so using m85 is just simply not possible.

 

side note: i did not know Ford made FFV's this early.

That's a late Ford FFV, the first were 93 MY, chrysler had a couple then as well. Those and the M85's were all sold only to fleets. The 98 was the last M85 rig. Public consumption E85 rigs started being available in 95-96 or later depending on region.

 

It should be possible to convert it to a E85 rig. I am not sure if the FCS is calibrated differently or not. A E-85 ECU should be all that is needed.  Find and post up the #'s off the FCS fuel compostion sensor, injectors and PCM, and I'll verify them against the E85#s. I haven't seen any part #'s for M85 that are unique except for the PCM. If you can give me the exact year, calibration code and # off the existing ECU I can figure out the proper E85 computer for it. Then go to www.partsamerica.com or www.car-part.com a online wrecking yard locating system. Thousands of wrecking yards across the US are on it PCM's start at $20 +shipping, and go way up depending on the wrecking yard and what prices will bear in their area. If the vehicle has PATS you would need to have the computer programed to accept the existing key transponder code.

 

There may be enough fuel trim to run w/o a ECU change. M85 needs an even richer mixture than E85 so it may be able to lean it out but it probably won't run as good as it could with the proper PCM.

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EMAS- I doubt the fuel trims will end up being an issue ---except the open loop and cold start may be rich???

 

If E85 fuel requirements are midpoint between M85 and gasoline would it not be similar to running an E85/gas FFV on a 50/50 blend to the ECU or was the ECU of yesteryear so different??

 

 

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:)  Of course he can. Methanol is corrosive and needs a much richer mixture to be correct than ethanol. If the car's 'puter can handle methanol, it will handle ethanol85 just fine. If the fuel system can live with both methanol and gasoline, ethanol falls nicely in the middle.  LSG

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  I saw one of the Dodge Spirits in Denver awhile ago filling with E85. I talked with the

owner briefly. Don't believe he mentioned whether it was an E85 FFV or not.

He said it ran great on E85.  Mileage was decent , too.  Don't believe I ever saw the

Spirit listed as an E85 FFV for Chrysler.  Looked to be about '95 vintage.

If the fuel system is measuring ethanol component(%) , it shouldn't see much of a

difference eth -vs- meth,  correct?? I'll bet there would be some issues with seals &

gaskets after ~15 years , tho... 

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  I saw one of the Dodge Spirits in Denver awhile ago filling with E85. I talked with the

owner briefly. Don't believe he mentioned whether it was an E85 FFV or not.

He said it ran great on E85.  Mileage was decent , too.  Don't believe I ever saw the

Spirit listed as an E85 FFV for Chrysler.  Looked to be about '95 vintage.

If the fuel system is measuring ethanol component(%) , it shouldn't see much of a

difference eth -vs- meth,  correct?? I'll bet there would be some issues with seals &

gaskets after ~15 years , tho... 

 

The two M85 Spirits I know of had "FFV" on the lower driver side front fender between the tire and the driver door. They were not listed on any E85 vehicle listing because they were M85 and limited runs/mods. Like I said- the owners of them were very pleased with them in E85 fuel economy and they were reliable.

 

 

 

From a post in allpar site; http://www.allpar.com/model/acclaim.html ;Clayton Gosmeyer wrote about the FFV version:

I have a 1994 Spirit 2.5l flex fuel (4 high volume injectors - needed for alcohol - and a higher pressure pump/regulator). Seems to me it makes good power all the way up. MPG is 24-27 town depending on lead footed but I have gotten 30MPG freeway w/ cruise set at 75 (the Idaho I84 limit). I burn regular gas, not M85 but the car (had 53K when I bought it this year) was a government fleet and was run on M85 until now. This is an easy way to convert to MPI if you find a blown flex fuel engine.

 

And another site; http://www.thedodgegarage.com/na_efi_ffv.html

 

Wow- did you gearheads catch in the second link that it had a turbo intake manifold (from sister 2.5L turbo versions at the time)- hmm- with the really oversized injectors that came with it for M85........????? And it is just sittin there capped off :(

 

 

 

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We had one of those '94 Spirits here at the dealership I work for, and it ran just fine on E85.  Never noticed one bit of difference.  The M85 systems were built much more stout than a E85 FFV system to accomodate the more corrosive properties of M85.  Everything was stainless steel, right down to the filler neck. 

 

I did  a little homework on the properties of M85 vs. E85, and they're so close that I saw no problem running E85 in one.  M85 wants to run just a tiny bit richer than E85 as its ideal A/F ratio, but since ethanol is such a forgiving fuel, it's doubtful that there'd be any difference in performance running it on a methanol tune.

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