1outlaw reacted to fleebut in CAFE
The EPA magical numbers game for mileage rating is just as phony. Most do not know the MPGe rating of EV car is just mere calculation of efficiency of electric motor. Sure it looks grand compared to traditional auto that does the lower efficient work of converting heat to energy. This the same duty of converting heat to generate electricity, but goes undetected per EV rating. What's strange about the EV rating, Energy Department had in place a realistic rating called well to wheel that leveled rating of traditional car with that fueled by the grid. Per political choice to promote EV and to make that choice shine brighter, the current executive pushed another easy calculation. So, a 96 MPGe looks terrific and motivates a buyer with environmental concerns with a wonderful environmental solution. Problem is the 96 MPGe is equivalent to 36 MPG car upon reality. Problem is the tradition fueled vehicle per alternative high blend ethanol fuel would trounce the EV that refuels mostly on older coal fired power plant. The car even trounces the CNG vehicle yet sits at the side with pure environmental and consumer benefit. In addition the fuel would trounce a heavy carbon fuel aka diesel upon a fair comparison. What is going on?
1outlaw got a reaction from dan45mcc in All Ethanol Plants that Blend E85
Dan- ACE acquired the old Utica facility which was set up well to blend E85.
A plant that is selling a lot of E85, E15 and E30 thru its large number of C-stores is United Coop in the Milton area of Wisconsin. They have blender pumps in their stations so I do not know if they plant blend or in the retail pumps only. BTW- I paid 1.98 for E85 at one of their stations 2 days ago.(E10 was 2.98). I told the Poynette attendant about your website and to share this with her manager in Milton that does the pricing- when I checked a few days later she said she had done so.
Valero got the old Renew 100,000 million gal plant- it was set up to receive railed in natural gasoline and even blends E100 with nat gas to make it's E95 as it is loaded into rail cars and trucks (no premixed E95 in advance). What a waste of a great facility with 4 load lanes and two blender load arms. Valero will never load a drop of E85 there unless strong RIN economics come on--but the last time this happened Valero was just one of the complainers rather than use what they had.
1outlaw reacted to Thumpin455 in Isobutanol - the next gen biofuel
Looked into this a while back. While it takes 10 gallons of water to produce one gallon of ethanol, using bakers yeast and a few gallons less using a hardier strain of yeast, you can reuse the water as is, or release it back to the environment without issue. Isobutanol uses 100 gallons to produce one gallon of fuel, leaves the water toxic and it must be treated before being used for fuel production or released back to the environment. Its made with bacteria and they are far more sensitive to living in their own waste than yeast. The toxicity of the fuel is also an issue, because spills would be hazardous just like gasoline. Im not sure how easy it is to put out a fire fed by isobutanol, but ethanol takes simple water while gasoline takes foam.
That isobutanol doesnt absorb water means rusted fuel tanks and water in fuel system problems just like gasoline, ethanol absorbs water but allows you to burn it. it mixes readily and causes no harm to anything until you get over 35% water in the fuel, and then it is only untreated/non anodized soft aluminum. Im not sure of its corrosive properties, so that might be a non issue.
The food vs fuel is useless since most of the feedstocks we can use for ethanol production are not food for humans. Kudzu, cattails, and other weeds grow profusely and yield far more ethanol than corn does. The water issue is of bigger concern with butanol because it requires so much more and requires treatment before reuse or release. Sure we can make it, but at a cost of drinking water and more expense due to treatment after producing butanol.
Having a far lower octane means less power potential, less efficiency, and needing larger engines due to lower compression ratios. I didnt look into its latent heat of vaporization characteristics but I doubt it will be as efficient as ethanol at cooling the intake charge. Sure butanol is higher than gasoline, but that isnt saying much. How does it run under boost and heavy loads? What emissions does it have? Does it leave a carbon deposit in the engine under combustion like gasoline does, or is it clean burning like ethanol producing only CO2 and H2O?
Lastly the BTU content is a red herring, as BTU is simply heating one pound of water one degree. Engines are not designed to merely heat water, its a byproduct of combustion and gasoline is still below 20% efficient, meaning it wastes 80% of its energy heating the engine, water, and air around it than powering whatever its being burned in. Ethanol is 40% efficient in the real world, 42% in the lab, at least according to the US Navy who tested it back in WWII. That means it only wastes 60% of its energy heating things up, which is part of why ethanol runs cooler. Candle wax and bees wax have high BTU content too, but they arent really good fuels for transportation engines. The comparatively paltry BTU deficiency of ethanol is nothing compared to the wasted energy of gasoline. So freaking what if butanol has almost as much BTU as gasoline, we arent heating water with it.
My big issue is the water used in production and the lower octane. High compression engines are more efficient, which is why compression ratios have been creeping upwards and why we have direct injection showing up now, because its a bandaid for the crappy octane of gasoline. We are trying to get more from the fuel we burn, and squeezing it harder does that, the problem is gasoline cant stand being squeezed very hard and it explodes too soon, which requires retarded timing, lower compression ratios, and shedding as much heat as possible to prevent detonation. Carbon build up from gasoline negatively impacts the propensity to preignite, as well as wearing out the engine sooner. It remains to be seen how isobutanol fares in comparison. It might be a decent bandaid for gasoline engines, but it cant compete with ethanol in many areas.
I think the biggest reason butanol has backing is that not any old Joe can produce it easily and cheaply in his back yard. They can control the production entirely, because the bacteria that make it will kill you if you try to make it yourself like you can make ethanol. the amount of water required makes it prohibitively expensive for the average Joe to to produce it, and the environmental impact would be massive if they started dumping the left over waste water. Think Canadian Tar Sands ecological nightmare and tailings escaping into rivers. Ethanol spills kill bacteria, but little else, and its biodegradable with sunlight and easily diluted with water.
1outlaw got a reaction from Ethanol_Addict in LOL! Minnesotans grew tobbaco as a cash crop-in the past
Somebody would argue that this would be so unfair to the poor who smoke- driving up their living costs
1outlaw got a reaction from Ethanol_Addict in E98 Pump Gas?
Here is the correct way to test E85- see link.
No- selling E98 is not legal unless from a blocked pump and labeled as E98 for race vehicles only (at least that is Wisconsin's rules-- EPA is likely the same)
It is very unlikely you got E98- more likely something is going on with your engine. Be aware that the water test for E10 is relatively accurate (will test E8-E12-- so within 2-3%) and the states watch very closely for E10 being higher than labeled. The water test for E85 is very inaccurate. Being off 5% is very common- temp, fossil gas used, water used, sit time, and such are just too variable. Have often seen racers claim they are getting E90 when I am sure this is not the case. Another test uses a GM test tool with a drop as a sample- time exposed to air and equip calibration also create variability. State labs often dilute E85 with gas down to where they can use their chromatographs then extrapolate back- also not real accurate.
1outlaw reacted to HuskerFlex in Ethanol is good for Nebraska
When I was growing up (80s and early 90s), rail shipment of grain out of the local elevators was a major issue. Simply there was too much corn, and not enough places to ship it out, as these were very far away. When you figure in what yields have gone up in those 20+ years, this issue would have only gotten much larger.
The piece mentioned how these facilities have added a great storage capacity, that is a huge piece.
The more important piece, is that a substantial portion of the local corn harvest is being trucked 5-20 miles to the ethanol plant, rather than being railed 1-2,000 miles to an export terminal.
Like in the pioneer days in the Appalachians, when the settlers would convert their corn harvest into whiskey, and transport this down the river system to New Orleans. Ethanol plants are doing the same thing (though on a MUCH larger, and denaturized scale ). How many unit trains (110 cars I believe) of grain hoppers would it take to ship out the corn it takes to make 1 unit train of ethanol?
Another piece of the puzzle is the "value added" nature of the industry. Rather than shipping out bulk commodities, with few direct jobs other than the one farmer, and the folks working at the elevator, we are processing this comodity in the state, greatly adding to its value with the production of...
* corn oil/biodiesel
* many others if a wet mill
Some plants are also spawning other spin-off plants producing bio-plastics compounds, custom feeds, and other ingredients.
All of this means by the time that 1 kernel of corn leaves our state, it has greatly magnified in value, and has produced many more jobs. Those jobs then are multiplied through the economy. Absolutely revolutionary what has happened in our Midwestern economy since I graduated high school in 1993. At that time, the farm economy had been circling the toilet for decades. Those still in it were considered either stubborn or stupid, or a combination of the two. Few saw any hope for anything but simply "hanging on longer"... but there was a few that rolled the dice and invested in this crazy ethanol scheme that some slick salesmen were pitching. Those gullible suckers (as they were seen at the time) took money that could have been used to stave off the farm for another few years, and put it on the table. Those folks saved a way of life, a culture, a state. Not just here, but multiplied out in other states as well.
1outlaw got a reaction from storky in New Test Fuel Specs From EPA (E10/E85)
The EPA has finally come out with E10 test fuel. This means for once that mileage and emissions tests will be done with real fuel. I would anticipate this will let automakers dial in tunes/emissions for real fuel vs the old test fuel which did not even represent E0 gas. E85 will also soon have a test version.
1outlaw got a reaction from James48843 in Total BS from Gasbuddy...ethanol that's part of the gasoline mixture has gone up more than a dollar a gallon in the past three weeks, said Tom Kloza,
Maybe the crude trains are tying up the tracks.
1outlaw got a reaction from BJoe in Total BS from Gasbuddy...ethanol that's part of the gasoline mixture has gone up more than a dollar a gallon in the past three weeks, said Tom Kloza,
Maybe the crude trains are tying up the tracks.
1outlaw got a reaction from gasisoutrageous in New video proof of what most of us know.
Take two Styrofoam cups. Do NOT use much gas due to mess. Pour a small amount of gasoline into one cup. Pour denatured ethanol into the other. Last time I tried this the gas cup lost it's bottom before I quit pouring. the ethanol cup was unaffected.
1outlaw reacted to HuskerFlex in New E85 Station BreakTime Poplar Bluff Mo
sort of incredible that one chain can have a 0% spread in one community, and have a 22% spread in another.
I got into a philosophical conversation with an ethanol/corn board person one time about this... their contention was that "any e85 station is better than none"... my point was that "bad priced e85 does more damage than good"... giving fuel to the anti ethanol crowd's "e85 is not cost effective" complaint.
Personally I'd rather have 30 e85 stations across the state of Nebraska that were all in the 20-25+% spread range, than to have 300 e85 stations that have an average spread of 0%... I'd be willing to bet that those 30 stations would sell a higher volume of fuel than the 300 would as well... probable make more money not only for the stations, but also for the ethanol industry...