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1outlaw

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Posts posted by 1outlaw


  1. Billy made an important observation- the static compression is always published but what is truly of importance is the dynamic compression. The static is basically the amount the air would be "squished" if the intake and exhaust valves were closed for the compression stroke. Dynamic takes in account the bleed off of air from late closing of intake valves and is determined by static compression and valve timing- this explains it better than I;

     

    http://cochise.uia.net/pkelley2/DynamicCR.html

     

    Too much dynamic compression will certainly cause detonation far sooner with any pump grade type gas than E85 which loves compression. Also true for cylinder pressure or crank pressures.


  2. Quote:

    "I should also point out, this is not something I've seen big oil and its supporters do, to my knowledge."

     

    I was where you are about 30 years ago while in the fuels distribution business- the only thing I noticed they threw mud at then was ethanol. Over time I came to realize just how good they are at laying low and making it appear the general population is not wanting ethanol, or that ethanol is the cause of all sorts of ill's. The entire alternative energy industry is so dumb it lets itself be divided into wind vs solar pv. Solar pv vs solar thermal, biomass heating vs biomass liquid fuels, corn ethanol vs cellulosic, biodiesel vs corn ethanol. Oil gets the food manufacturers into the game. Oil gets -surprise- their old nemesis environmental groups needing a new fundraising cause now taking oil money via indirect paths or boiling up discontentment in uninformed public to contribute. Several environmental groups often have little more integrity than oil- they are all about fundraising- whatever it takes.


  3. I have a garden shed I keep mine in-others cover with tarp in shade. Always best to store any fuel away from open flame, potential spark, etc. Vehicles in a garage are always a potential source of fire and stored or spilled fuel adds to the risk. On the other hand though just think  of the spilled fuel at gas stations and try to remember the last fire.

     

    I like the cans shown- check into the seal type on the lid. Also to avoid corrosion from concrete (a base) reacting with the steel or scratching off the paint-I would consider setting them on a board.


  4. I have some 200 proof stored for about 3 years now in a sealed

    aluminum 1 quart sample bottle- it is only just now losing it's sweet fresh odor-remember that ethanol is reputed to corrode aluminum. That same bottle has been in used holding E100 for 9 years- inside and out it looks brand new. Point is the only secret to safely storing ethanol is maintaining seal. Several racers I know even use plastic drums and though they may have some air space in them- will store from fall thru the winter and into the next spring so they can always have E85 summer blend on hand. Best to keep where temp is either constant or dry and cool. I have used the Blitz red 5 gal plastic gas jugs for several years- mine were bought when the jugs were unvented and the screw on black solid pour tube was without a rubber seal. This style jug lid seals merely by compression fit of plastic to plastic and will not degrade or lose seal.

     

    The only way to wreck ethanol is to allow it long term access to air with moisture present. One moisture gets into the ethanol then acid will begin to form.

     

    Personally I find that E85 stores better than gasoline because provided seal is maintained the only part that can degrade is the gasoline component (gasoline has so many chemicals that can react with each other-trying to return to a more stable oxidized state). On the other hand- ethanol is a single simple relatively stable compound.


  5. Outlaw with his experience at the ethanol plant with company cars (Tauri and Impalas) should be one of the experts on this.

     

    There is only 1 possible reason for this- improper gasoline additives still linger in a few markets. Understand this- THE ONLY ADDITIVE ETHANOL NEEDS IS THE CORROSION INHIBITOR WHICH IS IN EVERY GALLON OF ETHANOL IN THE USA!!!!. The problem additives are made for gasoline to control deposits and other problems gasoline has- the oil industry and additive industry could give a rat that there are a few (not most) of these additives still used in gas that if used in high ethanol concentrations will on RARE occasions build up on fuel injectors after a lot of miles. It will look like black snot and running a tank of E0 or E10 will clean it right off. Please note- I sold millions of gallons of E85 without one complaint or issue with this- but I used natural gasoline without additives to make the 15-30% hydrocarbon portion. I followed/participated on many E85 racing/performance websites at one point- these guys would tune high performance engines for E85 and could not put in gas easily without dropping octane too far or going rich on high octane race gas unless they modified their tune. Here is where the rare issue would show up- it was maybe 5-8 racers a year would post pics and ask what it is. It was limited to certain geographic areas where some fuel jobber was using a gasoline for blending E85 with the wrong additive in it. One more reason for ethanol plants to sponsor stations and blend it with natural gasoline.


  6. I see- the AP (or is it the Associated Press International now) has become the mouthpiece for the API (American Petroleum Institute). Never underestimate the power of oil to gain the press they want.

     

    My father always stated- they people only want cheap food- so do not expect profits to ever last more than a couple of years in farming. People do not understand farming, nor byproducts of ethanol production, and thus buy into the food/fuel crap. The city dwellers also could give a hoot about the resurgence of rural economies and the recent recovery from agriculture's downward spiral.

     

    This AP campaign does not surprise me at all- I am only left to wonder the exact track this money and influence flows.

     

    As far as pollution- I would love to see real proof the Gulf deadzone has grown and if so- unrelated to reduced flows from drought? In the past they would bring it up and the story would die because it was shrinking or at minimum stable. Because they are not really talking it up and providing multiple documented studies you can bet it is not happening. I'll bet the only thing they can point to is the East coast/Delaware problem which is more related to population and animal agriculture (note it is not corn belt).


  7. Someday you will wake up and realize your car has 250,000 miles on it, the body is all eaten away and that darned engine just will not quit. ;D

     

    I have a 96' Silverado and two Impala's nearing that mark- 'cept the bodies are still fair on the Impalas.


  8. When you buy a new Gilbarco fuel pump-94 octane is the highest octane sticker provided-pretty sure that is why they have it on rather than the more likely 100 octane for winter. It is normally not standard practice to post octane on E85. The 85% sticker they also used is also  not used today since while it was the original version - it was dropped due to the 70% being correct for winter. That was something I argued for years ago because 1) people were adding more gas when filling their cars believing they  needed to and 2) racers needed to know it could be less than 85%.


  9. James- I still have two cents worth ;D  I still say the truck would be the least important, least profitable part of the E85 distribution business. There are thousands of brokers of all kinds of products who earn a very good living on narrow margins and the only expense is phone, some light travel (market development), and a small amount of computer/office gear. You make money by your knowledge, perseverance, and not sharing how you do it- ask any grain or commodity broker. Oil jobbers also often lack trucks- I bought from them rather than the high cost guys who owned trucks. The trick is your target market must be stations who were smart enough (or have not built yet and can be convinced) to plant 10,000-12,000 gallon tanks. It is pure stupidity to plant a smaller tank. But then, what do I know-I'm obviously just an old goat. LOL.                                                                           

     

    Btw- natural gasoline can be the product of crude or well drip oil and is lightly refined and cleaned up to strip sulfur and maintain a certain range of product-mainly pentane. The sulfur content for natural gasoline is far lower than gasoline.


  10. Don't you just love the way things get minimalized- only 20,000 barrels. Hmm.

    20,000 barrels x 42 gal/bbl= 840,000 gallons. No wonder it covered 7.3 acres (3,179,881 ft2). That's every gallon spread over 3.78 ft2- do you realize how deep that either soaked in or pooled?

     

    It may not have gotten to a stream initially and may even be far from one- however- a big rain or snow will move it far if some mighty fast work was not done. some portions of this spill would be moderately water soluble (think benzene). At the high rate of soil contamination here- this will take a lot of soil remediation activity to allow this soil to become productive and safe again. In spills I dealt with in the past -I had to dilute the contamination with more soil, manure, imported organic matter, etc to make the soil less toxic such that beneficial bacteria, organisms, etc could survive and eat the toxins.

     

    How does so much get lost that fast from a pipeline without triggering a sensor alarm?

     

    If this can happen on a 6" line (small volume)- how can such leaks be detected on 20", 30" or larger lines?

     

    What if this would have been in the shallow part of the aquifer where water is near the surface?

     

    Glad the proposed Keystone route was at least changed- still not a fan---

     

    I love the state inspector's comment- "we need more inspectors"----- Raise the tax/inspection fees on oil- BUT DONT DO LIKE WISCONSIN WHERE ETHANOL PAYS THE SAME 3 CENTS CLEANUP FEE AS PETROLEUM!!!!!!!!

     


  11. ;D Having been a former COOP "energy division dept head" (and feed, and grain, etc) over the years with a trivial mindless role I am entitled to say this from experience;

     

    1) complainers in a Coop are more likely to get better prices- not worse- or at minimum- just as good- especially if done with balance and truth on the part of the complainer.

    2) a Coop that does not adapt and be proactive in it's marketing and relevance to it's members WILL BE REPLACED IN ONE GENERATION.

    3) Why would you not argue to protect your stock investment instead of losing it due to #2.

    4) Be real- a Coop is not there really to be cheapest every day of the year- but rather to also bring products and services of value or need that others were/are unwilling to provide and do so fairly and competitively. To ask for this is not unreasonable- so if your Coop will not provide at least competitively what obviously others can do- why does the Coop exist today? Has it already lost it's former purpose and now is merely on the chase to get larger so it can spread it's overhead over more territory?- if so the eggshell may soon crack because the mgt is getting farther from the people every day (thus- when an independent starts up someday- why not buy local?)


  12. The best priced E85 in Wisconsin is a Coop- but one that owns an ethanol plant. Some of the poorer priced ones are also Coops.

     

    Family needs to make an appointment with the GM and if no progress is made- time for your family to pack the annual meeting and ask a lot of questions in front of the board and voting members. They own stock- time to be heard. Problem is getting them the facts regarding the real market- perhaps the new Iowa wholesale publication and this website's retail prices would be good ammo.


  13. I suspect the fall in ethanol prices is far more tied to new crop corn which is now rolling into ethanol plants at a far lower cost than old crop. Dec corn (new crop purchase/sell price is based on that month right now) has fallen about 20 cents over last 3-4 days- basis may have also fallen a lot with new crop. I am a bit out of touch on grain and ethanol markets as compared to the past but this would be normal. Keep in mind also that some ethanol plants have been shut down waiting for new crop- this includes the plant I used to work for which is now owned by Ace.

     

    If the govt shutdown was affecting the market-I would think it would also be affecting gasoline which has moved back up the last 2-3 days.


  14. Quote from husker: "Curious how one gets to 89 octane with 84 base gas"

     

    A blend of 84 suboctane and 91 octane premium.

     

    Quote from E85racer:

    "Another note, at the drag races last night, I overheard some guys say race gas is over $15.00 a gallon and it costs them over $75 just for 112 octane race gas for one day at the race. My brother commented, we pay less than that $75.00 for race gas and for the gas to get to the races for the tow vehicle combined for TWO days at the races. Note: we are putting street legal 105+ octane in both vehicles!"

     

    When I was running Renew one of the most enjoyable parts was helping guys with information and contacts to convert race cars to E85. A lot of guys did this as long as the sanctioning body approved. While some did the conversion to save money- all appreciated the cooler running and increased torque.

     

     


  15. For energy independence sake... And to deprive the oil bastards of more market... I would like to see ALL e85 blended with natural gasoline/drip gas... Just take an extra tank at the terminal, or better yet blend right at ethanol plant. 

     

    With blender pumps, and e85 in the tank, even the e10/15/30 would be using this...  Less gas for oil industry😘

     

    Yes but the problem is that you, I, or even a big private like Kum and Go will not be allowed to haul CBOB or RBOB suboctane out of the terminal into a station to blend in a blender pump. One oil company told me "we think it would be legal to sell you suboctane 84 because you can prove you legally blended it into a finished product BUT WE WILL NOT ALLOW IT ANYWAY"

    Why was it that I wanted suboctane at that point? --because everybody else was buying terminal blended 87 E10 made with suboctane and the only 87 I could get was made with the crap suboctane anyway, blended with premium and costing 12 cents more than conventional 87 E0 cost in other areas where still available (they did not want conventional to be competitive for use as a blending agent outside of the terminal.


  16. The gas blendstock used in E85- particularly in summer grade is insignificant relative to energy content since it is such a minor % of the fuel. Furthermore- I prefer the use of natural gasoline which is the cleanest type and lacks any fuel additive other than pipeline anti-drag agent. It is also the lowest octane and energy content--but again an insignificant factor as it will only be 17-30% of E85 final blend. The reason I like it is that it is nearly sulfur free (no contributing acids in oil/less soot), adds a more vapor pressure (so less is needed and more alcohol can be used with equal or better cold start and final octane), and best yet- those with dedicated E85 cars like drag race or circle track types will not have additive clash/black snot on injectors or carb'ed intake runners (a rare but concerning issue to those with $6,000+ performance engines). I challenge anyone to find less mpg on this version of E85 vs one made with normal terminal gasoline (or soon to be RBOB).

     

    On the flip side- a low btu content gasoline that is 90% of the fuel in your tank makes a big difference and is really aggravated if the octane is low and the ECU pulls back timing to avoid knock.

     

    Wintermute- you will not likely find any 85 octane stickers in Des Moines- suboctane 84 is only a blendstock not to be sold as a complete fuel. Only as one travels west and the elevation climbs (ie Wyoming/Colorado) is an 85 offered legally. At high elevations less air is drawn into the engine, so less air is compressed, less heat is created from compression, power level goes down since less fuel can be put in less air to maintain proper air/fuel ratio, and thus the octane requirement drops.


  17. that because of loose blending tolerances, we've probably gotten more than 10% some of the time already.

     

     

    My understanding on the ethanol blending: a 3% tolerance is allowed.  I got this information from one who works in the ethanol business and actually traveled around the country visiting the ethanol plants.

     

    Not in Wisconsin- the inspectors never allowed me over 1/2% over- even that would subject me to another round of inspections. Any time I was over it came back to poor sampling procedures on blender pumps (which need bigger samples than 1 pint out of a hose or manifold that just contained E20 or E85). But of course I was the bad guy that everyone loved to hate in the fuel business ;D .

     

    Fuel requirements are first federal but states inspect and do vary greatly in interpretation. The problem we had here was the chief of inspectors was an ethanol hater though his team secretly felt the opposite but were under his control.


  18. My understanding is that ethanol will tend to raise octane effect more in the lower octane gas gasoline and less so in high octane- something like more than 2.5 AKI in 84 base and more like 2 AKI in 91 octane base.

     

    One thing I really dislike is that the RBOB 84 plus 10% ethanol.always seemed to be the source of true mpg complaints as compared to 87 conventional base with 10% ethanol. I've read that it is common for this base RBOB alone that was used in non-attainment areas such as Chicago, Milwaukee, etc was responsible for up to 3-4% drop in fuel economy as compared to the typical 1 1/2% of E10 in conventional (many vehicles actually can gain on conventional E10 fuel rather than lose). If true- this would mean such RBOB base with 10% could be up to 5 1/2% loss in mpg. That would correlate to what literally hundreds of residents of that area would tell me about that fuel versus conventional E10 when they came up to central WI where they would load up their tanks before returning home. Is it true- who knows? A couple of possible causes are 1) a difference in energy content of blendstock components of RBOB and 2) ethanol is a great research octane enhancer but less so on motor octane- the blend of the two numbers lends a nice increase in AKI (R+M/2) but if the base gas gets too low on motor octane the ethanol will not bring it up enough- this would show up at high load, high heat, low RPM conditions causing the ECU to pull timing.

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