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Everything posted by 1outlaw

  1. Cessna- I would love to take them a dispenser but at $25,000 each plus about $5,000 to remove, replace with a new one and transport to IL- I cannot spare one. I do not have the time either to dance w/ them though I would love to. I have pulled fuel samples and tested for metals to make sure degredation was not occuring- they were fine so I am not afraid of the issue until UL rules. My only fear is that oil companies do not want blenders for e85 because they potentially lose control- thus UL does not have pressure to study blend valves for approvals.
  2. paulc- I forgot to add that on the '04s I am not sure if those had the alcohol sensor and different programming from earlier models or if that was the year they pulled off the sensor and went to new programming. On my '06 impala it helped to go from e85 to NL for 3 tanks then back to e85- I picked up 2 mpgs and was able to sustain that.
  3. paulc- I belive GM is using the conventional sensors to try to detect what fuel you are running- primarily the O2 instead of a sensor to detect conductivity of the fuel like the earlier ones had. Your low power at warmup is normal because the alcohol burns cooler and it takes longer to go closed loop.
  4. Hi Cessna- It was me you met. Many in the oil industry and others who fear about molehills, believe that E85 should be sold on a separate dispenser so that the consumer will not mistake E85 for "real gas" and cause damage to standard vehicles- giving E85 a bad name. Let me list the damage claims we have experienced; Yep- overwelming wasn't it. There were several check engine lights- but that is mostly due to folks wanting to put a $1.79 fuel in whatever they had hoping they could get away with it. You saw how the pumps are marked- they knew what they were doing.
  5. paulc, Your mpg loss is pretty severe as compared to the 2002-2003 models (most of those I have talked to seem to be 1-2 mpg drop) and even a little greater than the 4 mpg drop on the 2005-2006 models. I have heard of operability issues in the '04's. Do you operate very short distances, tow trailers, carry a heavy load, or have a heavy foot??? How many tanks of e85 have you run in a row? Have you switched back to NL, then back to e85 to see how it recalculates? Do you rely on the on-board fuel mileage calculator or hand calculate as a cross check? Have you gone to a qualified shop to see if there are any stored codes? I know of two '04s that dealers could not correct a starting issue on. Sorry for the hundred questions but 2004 models have intrigued me- I am not sure if this was the first year GM eliminated the alcohol sensor, but things seemed to change then. So far- no hybrids are flex-fuel.
  6. Cessna- Blender pumps would also eventually need to be UL certified. Keep in mind there has NEVER been a UL certified pump made. The blender pump may be the last to be certified because oil companies will try to keep E85 on a separate dispenser away from their products. The biggest advantage of a blender pump is that the ethanol can come in as E85 or straight denatured ethanol and be blended into all products- thus the alcohol can come direct from any ethanol plant (regardless of whether or not they can plant blend e85) and avoid the inefficiencies of trucking ethanol to a fuel terminal to be blended into E10 and/or E85.
  7. Remember the TV ads; (DAD) Son, can you say Hemi? Now son will have to say; No Dad-Liquor does it quicker-I want a 150!
  8. Dan- I do not have the link at home but I received a link at work today from the NEVC that UL stated while there were no known incidences of problems - they made the move they did because they need to study their approval process before they move into approving a dispenser for fuel they have less experience in. This is not a quote but my summary of what I read. Meanwhile I guess we "wait for the paint to dry".
  9. The 10 seconds delay to crank may only be a benefit to Fords. According to what I have been told, GM and Daimler run a 60 psi injection pressure where Ford runs 40 psi--- if this is true, it would make sense that a Ford would benefit to reach full pressure before crank on cold start. Can anyone verify these pressures and do all manufacturers allow leak-off of pressure on shutdown????
  10. That is pretty decent Dan- about like the better factory FFV's and a heck of a lot better than the newer ones- especially at that speed.
  11. There you go Cornbread. Not too many farmers have sent our $ back in bullets but instead they spend it to buy things here that they need. Plus we get cleaner air, cleaner engines, save non-renewable oil for the future (or those who will not change), and better performance when properly tuned. I just hope for the day when automakers give the public engines that are optimized for alcohol instead of gasoline alone. Use it- we'll grow some more!!!!!!
  12. Cornbread- I would use the on-board fuel mileage indicator as only a guide but use actual gallons and miles to hand calculate you mileage to cross check your on-board system. For example I found my Taurus on-board calculator was close on NL gas but it understated mpg's on E85 by 1-2. My Impala is very close but understates E85 mpg by 3/10 to 1/2 mpg. You will also likely find your speed/ mpg sweet spot may be different for alcohol than gas.
  13. We have one of those 2005 Taurus FFV's at work- I used to drive it. Had the same experiences he had thru summer/fall of '05 while I kept emailing Ford. Fall of '05 they finally were able to replicate my starting problem at Dearborn- during winter they got the ECU flash written and by February I had the flash installed. When Spring came (Spring/Fall & Summer blends were where the problem were worst) I found it was better as it only took moving ignition key to on 10 seconds, then crank. Some Ford mechanics who race alcohol may have since found the problem- a fuel pump which put out too little pressure. So far the car now starts fine.
  14. Freeman- I ditto much of what GreenGenes says particularly about staying independent (non-brand) but my cautions on buying an existing station are several- existing contamination, inadequate pumps, poor location, and very important---- YOU DO NOT WANT SINGLE WALL FIBERGLASS TANKS! Our company buys only clean sites and put all new equip. in such as fiberglass clad steel doublewall tanks (12,000 gal) and blender pumps so we can blend straight ethanol with any blend we choose to offer- such as e10 and e85. Be carefull- you will need state and local approvals plus tank leak insurance from someone like AIG. An unattended site with 2dispensers (4hoses) such as this will cost you around $150,000 to $200,000 before land cost- location, location, location, and price will be very important. You will need to sell other blends such as e10 to make payments because putting up a single e85 only dispenser that takes cash and credit card will still cost you about 130 grand to do it right and be attractive to consumers.
  15. FreeManWhoCan- I suggest contacting the Nation Ethanol Vehicle Coalition @ www.e85fuel.com to see if they know of an ethanol producer who might supply you at a % spread below gasoline. Be patient and carefull to know you have supply before you build. I do not know if the plant in Louden Tenn. is friendly to such proposals. Ward Oil in Tampa was (and is?) supplying Florida Govt. locations and at least at one time a leader there but I have not talked to them for a long time. YOU DO NOT WANT TO BUY ETHANOL FROM A REGULAR FUEL TERMINAL- so find a friendly like Ward or buy direct 8200 gallon loads from a producer. Miami will be tough due to it's distance from production unless someone builds one in Florida and even if they do- it's price value is higher as a 10% additive to enhance octane and clean air to oil companies than as E85 in today's FFV's that are not really optimized for it. You will need to be able to sell it for 20% below gasoline to sell much of it unless you find a large group of racers and patriots who will support you anyway. Best Wishes! Outlaw
  16. Found the D.O.E. fuel standards book online (for recommended seasonal blends). Go to www.e85fuel.com/pdf/e85_technical_booklet.pdf Page 11 lists the 3 seasonal blend classes, page 22 gives the classes by month, by state.
  17. Dan- Renew is still on fall blend for a few days. In wisconsin winter blend is recommended by Nov 1- farther south it is later.
  18. Sean- I do not have any ideas to help you with convincing a private facility to let you fill there other than to inquire why they have it and appeal to their senses, beg a little, see if the pump can take a credit card to make it easy for them, etc. In a brief search, it looks like Alabama and Georgia residents prefer to drink their ethanol and burn their gas. You may have to brew your own 180-190 proof, buy a kit, and add a 1 gallon tank for gas to start it on like the old Brazilian method-----------or- --------research the build your own still sites for dehydration materials. I have seen some sites mention buying 50# bags of material you can add to 190 proof to absorb water, then you filter it out- hopefully dry enough to mix with gas to make E85. Phil
  19. redbullapril23- You indicated a concern with mixing gasoline and E85 due to water. This is not a concern- USA commercial ethanol is anhydrous (dry) 200 proof grain alcohol- not 190 proof (5% water) as is typically produced in home stills and Brazil (Brazil now produces both kinds). E85 is anhydrous ethanol 85%, gasoline 15% already mixed- you can add more gas and not cause any issues related to moisture. Alcohol is often added to gasoline to remove water from vehicle tanks ( you ever use Heet?? Yellow bottle is Methanol, Red bottle is Isopropyl- Both are other alcohols) Generally anhydrous alcohol can absorb about 4 teaspoons of H20 for every 10% of increase of alcohol in a gallon- only when you exceed it's capacity to absorb do you get phase separation. Separation ans corrosion used to be an issue in Brazil when all they had was 190 proof alcohol- they could not mix it with gasoline so they started their cars on gas. When the car warmed up they switched them over to 190 proof. The only reason we put 15% gas in our USA ethanol is to start the Flexible Fuel Vehicles we have here. Your larger concern would be posible operability issues caused by operating mixtures of alcohol/ gasoline beyond your ECU's ability to control- a kit like flextek usually takes care of this though I have no personal experience with any of the kits.
  20. 1outlaw


    Gee tschaaid- I wish you were my neighbor. How did you figure all that out and have time to do it?? I am to buried in work to keep up with today's systems.
  21. 1outlaw


    BURNALCOHOL, I was thinking Colorado would be more fun- I like to backpack there, but I suppose Lincoln would be ok so I would have a place to fill up on my way through as I come through in my S10 FFV!!!! tschaid, I have an S10 FFV which performs very well on E85, nice gain on power, no operability issues, drops about 12% in mileage. Mine is an automatic trans. Those I know with stick shift S10's drop about 11%. My company Taurus had a couple of cold start issues and one was solved after 6 months when partially due to my emails- Ford was able to replicate the problem and write a reflash that took care of it (a summer cold start). The other cold start issue is less a concern and may be related to low pump pressures. This car would drop 22% in mileage in the summer (on summer blend) but only about 10% in the winter (this car would drop mpg on NL sharply in winter. Another employee now drives it and it has about 80,000 miles on it now. My new Impala gets 31 mpg on e10 but only 23 on E85 and the tailpipe is black with carbon- sound like the person you met??- all the others I know of are similar. GM has a lot of work to do on this new FFV model. I am very interested in your F150's performance as stock (particularly mpg) and I think your observations on stoich are right on with my observations and discussions with knowledgeable individuals who have successfully run non-FFV's on the lean side when going for economy- not full power.
  22. 1outlaw


    Dan- your thought of requiring ethanol plants to direct market or have supply agreements for a % of production for a portion of their production dedicated to E85 might have some merit to get E85 off the ground. I think though what is most needed is a requirement on automakers to produce engines that operate more efficiently on E85 than today. There is no reason why some of these vehicles drop more than 20% in mileage (some even 26%) other than poorly engineered designs when other models run at 10-12% increased consumption. I realize that the USA is probably not yet ready for more efficient turbo designs or 14:1 compression engines but automakers can do better while still on a budget. The greatest reasons more ethanol producers do not support E85 at this time is that too many FFV's we have consume too much fuel in relation to gas and thus ethanol has better price value as an octane enhancer- in other words they can get more $$ selling to oil companies for E10 in the short run than discounting ethanol for E85. The problem with selling ethanol to oil companies is that it is not taking a long term view, as you well know. Another reason most ethanol producers do not direct market to consumers is they do not have the skill set required and they fear the oil companies may cut them off, sue them, etc. We are talking about an ant taking on an elephant.
  23. 1outlaw


    Dan- I work for Utica. So far all Renew branded stations are owned by Renew E85 LLC which is owned by the same 5 guys who own Utica. Yes- we, like all plants have to sell ethanol to major oil companies. We see ethanol posted at oil terminals in Wisconsin at $0.25- $1.25 over what we know trades are done for- is it any wonder you see variable pricing at E85 stations who do not have agreements in place with ethanol producers? Ethanol needs to go straight from the plant to the station to avoid the excess freight, middle men, throughput charges, and excessive gross margins applied at terminals often by companies who do not want it to succeed. We welcome any ethanol plant who wants to direct market or form agreements with station owners- this will speed the development of more vehicles and more importantly- better designs such as Saab's Biopower turbocharged European models. This will greatly support a market for all the ethanol production coming on line and ultimately prevent oil's attempts to prevent the consumer from seeing it's real potential. In Minnesota some plants do have agreements with station owners. One such company is Chippewa Valley Ethanol who also makes an industrial alcohol and Shakers Vodka in addition to fuel grade ethanol. Mid-Missouri Ethanol must be doing agreements like Chip Valley. Badger Ethanol at Monroe WI. does have one station in their home town that they branded as Smart Gas. They do keep it priced with the consumer in mind.
  24. 1outlaw


    Dan- RE; Renew-I put them up and I manage them. I also welcome feedback about them. By the way all E85 will be $1.799 by 9/30/06. I just discovered this web site a couple of days ago- how did you know about us???
  25. Megan- One caution- this is a new flex-fuel model for GM and they have some updates for the ECM that you may find you need. I found one glitch by forgetting to fill up one day with E85 and so at the next station I put 4.85 gal of unleaded in, 60 miles later I filled with E85- then a few days later I filled again with E85, after which it started doing hard shifts followed by a persistent check engine light. Thinking I had transmission trouble, I went to the dealer and in looking at the codes it showed 16% alcohol in my tank, yet my tank now had 76% alcohol---- this is a glitch that I believe they have an update for. I had to fill up with straight NL gas (I hate filling with gas!!!) to clear the light and I have to go back to the dealer now to have them clear the code (all under warranty). You may want to run your tank down low and completely fill it when going from gas to e85 and back to avoid what happened to me. This being a new model for GM has some rough edges but it does run well on it. My GM s-10 has been flawless however and has much better tuning on it including only a mileage loss of 12% and noticeably better Hp vs the Impala at 20-25% mileage loss.
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