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Everything posted by Thumpin455

  1. Jubilee in Ishpeming Michigan no longer sells E85, they have a big sign that says ethanol free unleaded. This leaves Sault St Marie as the only E85 station in the entire upper peninsula.
  2. Seriously? I have even more incentive to get my stills back in operation. When I do you can bet your butt I will be showing anyone who wants to know how to make their car run on it and how to make it. I bought my last ten gallons from those crooks in Ishpeming.
  3. Still a five cent spread in the UP at the only pump left.
  4. The Soo does me no good, thats a three hour one way drive. They have the only other station that carries E85. Too far to go for fuel. Marquette is getting a tribal station, they are building it now across from Lowes next to WalMart. Caused a big stink when they decided to do it, because the local guys cant keep the price up around California prices.
  5. He said they all get fuel from the same supplier in Green Bay, every station gets it from the same place. Everyone here knows that you drive north to Houghton fifty miles and gas is 30 cents or more cheaper. They are gouging Marquette and nobody cares. We almost always have the highest gas prices in the state, far too often the highest in the midwest. They arent going to get a different supplier. I asked the new tribal station owners if they would put E85 in and they said hell no, because it ruins cars. If the land here wasnt so cheap I would move.
  6. It was a whopping 5 cents today. 87 $3.57 E85 $3.52 Asked why the poor spread, guy working there told me its because they are paying $4.20 off the truck, that Green Bay is gouging us. He said the owner is considering getting rid of E85 because he has had problems with people claiming it harmed their vehicles, and it isnt selling. Well with no spread to speak of it will only go in vehicles that run nothing else. Its hard to read in my pic, but its $3.57. All the gas around here is that high, 92 is $4.07 at the Holiday station. I see sub $3 gas and under $2 E85 posted here and I want to move.
  7. Looked into this a while back. While it takes 10 gallons of water to produce one gallon of ethanol, using bakers yeast and a few gallons less using a hardier strain of yeast, you can reuse the water as is, or release it back to the environment without issue. Isobutanol uses 100 gallons to produce one gallon of fuel, leaves the water toxic and it must be treated before being used for fuel production or released back to the environment. Its made with bacteria and they are far more sensitive to living in their own waste than yeast. The toxicity of the fuel is also an issue, because spills would be hazardous just like gasoline. Im not sure how easy it is to put out a fire fed by isobutanol, but ethanol takes simple water while gasoline takes foam. That isobutanol doesnt absorb water means rusted fuel tanks and water in fuel system problems just like gasoline, ethanol absorbs water but allows you to burn it. it mixes readily and causes no harm to anything until you get over 35% water in the fuel, and then it is only untreated/non anodized soft aluminum. Im not sure of its corrosive properties, so that might be a non issue. The food vs fuel is useless since most of the feedstocks we can use for ethanol production are not food for humans. Kudzu, cattails, and other weeds grow profusely and yield far more ethanol than corn does. The water issue is of bigger concern with butanol because it requires so much more and requires treatment before reuse or release. Sure we can make it, but at a cost of drinking water and more expense due to treatment after producing butanol. Having a far lower octane means less power potential, less efficiency, and needing larger engines due to lower compression ratios. I didnt look into its latent heat of vaporization characteristics but I doubt it will be as efficient as ethanol at cooling the intake charge. Sure butanol is higher than gasoline, but that isnt saying much. How does it run under boost and heavy loads? What emissions does it have? Does it leave a carbon deposit in the engine under combustion like gasoline does, or is it clean burning like ethanol producing only CO2 and H2O? Lastly the BTU content is a red herring, as BTU is simply heating one pound of water one degree. Engines are not designed to merely heat water, its a byproduct of combustion and gasoline is still below 20% efficient, meaning it wastes 80% of its energy heating the engine, water, and air around it than powering whatever its being burned in. Ethanol is 40% efficient in the real world, 42% in the lab, at least according to the US Navy who tested it back in WWII. That means it only wastes 60% of its energy heating things up, which is part of why ethanol runs cooler. Candle wax and bees wax have high BTU content too, but they arent really good fuels for transportation engines. The comparatively paltry BTU deficiency of ethanol is nothing compared to the wasted energy of gasoline. So freaking what if butanol has almost as much BTU as gasoline, we arent heating water with it. My big issue is the water used in production and the lower octane. High compression engines are more efficient, which is why compression ratios have been creeping upwards and why we have direct injection showing up now, because its a bandaid for the crappy octane of gasoline. We are trying to get more from the fuel we burn, and squeezing it harder does that, the problem is gasoline cant stand being squeezed very hard and it explodes too soon, which requires retarded timing, lower compression ratios, and shedding as much heat as possible to prevent detonation. Carbon build up from gasoline negatively impacts the propensity to preignite, as well as wearing out the engine sooner. It remains to be seen how isobutanol fares in comparison. It might be a decent bandaid for gasoline engines, but it cant compete with ethanol in many areas. I think the biggest reason butanol has backing is that not any old Joe can produce it easily and cheaply in his back yard. They can control the production entirely, because the bacteria that make it will kill you if you try to make it yourself like you can make ethanol. the amount of water required makes it prohibitively expensive for the average Joe to to produce it, and the environmental impact would be massive if they started dumping the left over waste water. Think Canadian Tar Sands ecological nightmare and tailings escaping into rivers. Ethanol spills kill bacteria, but little else, and its biodegradable with sunlight and easily diluted with water.
  8. Unless youre close to Wisconsin or Ishpeming, you cant fill up with it. I find lots of people who are ignorant about it, as well as dead set against it. There is a new gas station going in here in Marquette, one of the tribes owns it. They arent having E85 installed, not only no but hell no the guy I talked to said. Far too many people here think its horrible, probably because the prices are so high and they think it lowers mileage by half or some other bs. People cant believe my 1970 vehicle runs on it and doesnt have problems. I show them, have been driving it all over this summer testing and tuning on it, and still people dont believe it when I tell them it runs on ethanol. "It doesnt sound like a high compression engine." We arent going to get more pumps up here until people actually want to buy it. They arent going to want to buy it until they see how well it works, and its priced better. You can bet that once I have my stills up and running again, and I am burning my fuel, that I will make sure people know how well it works. Not that I expect more stations to start carrying it, they have a nice little group that keeps prices high and prevents us from having any choices in the matter.
  9. Must be nice, they are still gouging us up here, only an ten cent spread. Can't wait to get my stills up and running again.
  10. I was down there yesterday and never even looked. Yeah they were at most ten cents under 87. Ishpeming isn't pricing well either, and I'm not the only old car guy running it.
  11. Must be nice. Its $3.59 here, they really dont care if they sell any.
  12. Dan, I was surprised too. I know lots of techs who hate ethanol, say you need twice as much, after run oil is a must, stainless everything, and it eats everything it touches. They don't know the difference between methanol and ethanol, and quite a few think moonshine is methanol. They simply don't know, and just because you're a mechanic doesn't mean you know anything about it. Most of them I know are simple parts replacers, not someone who understands things intimately enough that they can modify things to run better, and they look down on guys who can. Every car can run ethanol that has been built with a spark ignition, its a matter of tuning, not engine design. Can't test for octane, besides ethanol doesn't really fit the test they devised for gasoline. Its a lab thing only, I'm just a guy with old cars and a wideband O2, no laboratory here. Straight out of the still. Haven't made any this year because I had to start over almost from scratch when I moved, she got the old shop in the divorce. Been running E85 this year and testing/tuning with it. There hasn't been a cork gasket made for my cars in some time, not that it really matters. I had some in a Holley carb, they held up fine. Didn't see any problems I don't already see with gas. Cork carb gaskets went bad with gas too, but nobody wants to remember that. Fuel hose gets brittle, cracks then leaks with gasoline, the higher the octane the faster it happens. I have 7 year old hose on the GTO, and some is almost twenty years old on it, still works fine. I'm just not seeing the horrible issues I should be according to anti ethanol people. The GTO has had at least E10 in it since I bought it, to hear the naysayers talk it should have eaten all my carbs by now. I wonder what's in the shake oil they sell that is supposed to prevent ethanol from harming anything. How does it prevent something that doesnt happen?
  13. More corrosive over time in older vehicles. Yeah, I would have an issue with that statement, and that it damages old cars in any way, unless you somehow managed to keep all the original hoses and carb parts in it for the last 30+ years. Always hearing it, the same false BS about how bad it is for carbs. Methanol is, ethanol doesnt seem to be after running it for many years. E10 from 1994 until 07, then E85/HE100 for the last seven years with the original tank and lines, using modified old carbs from the mid 70s to run E85 and whatever I happened to have laying around for the E10. If there was going to be a problem, it would have surfaced by now, because most people dont drive the same car for 20 years. Know whats strange? When I have E85 in the car I get some white residue left over in the carb when the fuel evaporates over the winter. When its my homebrew in there, the carb is clean with no residue at all in the spring. Two different Qjets that sat for over a year before I put them back on the car for test and tuning, and the one that had E85 last had white stuff. Must be something they are adding to the fuel that does it, because 185 proof doesnt leave the ring on the float. It doesnt hurt or clog anything, just some white stuff stuck to the float and accel pump. This carb had HE100 in it. Looks brand new inside it.
  14. My oil has an ethanol aroma to it, no way around it really. Part of the reason you have to change it with gasoline is dilution by the gas. Since I run a carb in a 1970 vintage car, it smells like ethanol all the time. People seem to like it around here.
  15. Sludge and corrosion? That's gasoline they are thinking about. There are fuel treatments out there to keep carbs and fuel lines clean while using ethanol, any snake oil they can conjure I guess. They only thing you have to worry about while running ethanol is getting the oil hot enough to evaporate the condensation that naturally occurs in all engines. Anything to make a buck while spreading erroneous crap about ethanol.
  16. If you can get more than three times the ethanol yield from tobacco per acre than corn, it would be easy to make it viable. Far easier to harvest than cattails, and they yield far more than corn per acre, but you need flowing water for cattails. Right now I am planning to use maple tree sap, since I have a few hundred of them on my land. If I could make tobacco work, you bet I would.
  17. Not yet. Soo, Iron Mountain, and Ishpeming are all we have. Life got messed up last year, have to rebuild. The bonus is now I have more space, more sources of sugar (maple trees), and my system will be fully integrated into my shops and cabin. Have been working on another 65 LeMans, making it a fun toy. 11.3:1, E85, and of course my standard 455 bottom end. Put my 850 Holley on it, but its not running yet. Been driving the 70 GTO as often as I can, tuning it, and damn its fun. Here is the 65.
  18. Gee, you didn't need to replace everything in the fuel system to run the oh so horrible corn gas? I didn't either, mine is a 70 GTO with a 13:1 455 using iron 69 vintage heads, 700R4, 3.42 gears, and a small hydraulic roller. 780 Holley I modified runs great. Later this summer I will put the Qjets I built back on it since I have the wideband O2 installed and working good. Need to do some test and tune with the Qjets. 0-60 in mine is quick, it feels like a low 12 second car, but it does like to spin the BFGs.
  19. The station in Ishpeming had E85 at $3.20 and 87 octane was $3.19. Iron Mountain had E85 at $2.99 and 87 was $3.26. This might be part of the reason why Ishpeming was so high, but it might just be poor marketing.
  20. Diminishing returns above 14:1 is for gas, because it cant handle the detonation/knock issues unless its C16 and that gets pricey fast. Most people still think gasoline when talking about high compression, they also assume huge cams and big everything else. The thinking behind running gas doesnt work as well with ethanol, sure it will run but you wont get the most out of it. Running HE100 you can run more compression and it will result in more power, and less fuel consumed to somewhere over 19:1 SCR. It depends on the engine design, bore, stroke, port and valve size, etc. Your small bore and ports will benefit you with ethanol over gas, and you will probably be surprised at how little fuel you use, unless you run way rich for max power. If my 455 with a cast crank, forged rods and Icon pistons can handle just under 13:1, your 273 should do it without issue. The cam choice depends on what you want to do with this engine, is it a race only rig or a street engine you want to run on ethanol? I like to run cams that build cylinder pressure with a wide LSA and minimal overlap, sort of the cam you would run in an engine that had 7:1-8:1 compression on gas. The same cam would work with a blower because you dont want the intake charge being shoved out the exhaust valve. Depending on the gear you run, weight of the car, and the stall (if auto) you can move the power band around with duration. It will make more low and mid range torque than it would on gas, so you wont need quite as much stall and gear on ethanol. The blower will change things, so you wont need more than a 3.55 gear, otherwise you are going past your torque band too quickly and the car will run slower. If you do put a blower on a 12:1 engine, dont run E85 in it because the gas will knock a hole in a piston, or flatten a rod bearing and you wont hear it until its too late. You also need to run it rich to keep from going lean and burning a hole in something. At some point you will have an issue with head gaskets running compression and a blower. Looks like a fun project.
  21. What about the massive drought? Good to hear though. Apparently even with a crappy crop ethanol can stand on its own and be cheaper than gas now.
  22. No worries about your English, its readable and understandable. Many of my friends have English as a second language, or third.. The self learning bolt on EFI are said not to run with E85, but I havent had a chance to test one as yet. They might be able to do it, but I havent tried one so I cant say for certain. To switch between ethanol and gas you need to be able to adjust the fuel air mixture for the difference in each fuel. Ethanol runs richer because it has more oxygen in it than gasoline does, so it has to have more fuel to compensate for the oxygen in the cylinder. A carb cant change things easily on the fly, the passages inside need to be larger than a gasoline carb, so you cant switch back without lots of effort and tearing the carb down and making changes internally. EFI can adjust for the air fuel mix as it runs, some OEM (original equipment) systems can handle 100% ethanol, others only 30%-50%. Some aftermarket systems that allow you to tune the air fuel mix and the fuel curve can run ethanol easily, it just depends on which one. Yes often you see a power increase when switching to ethanol fuels. Many racing sanctioning bodies prohibit alcohol fuels due to unfair power advantage. Ethanol produces more low RPM and mid range power than gasoline, right where you want it for driving on the street or highway. In a low compression engine such as your Fury has, the increase is usually rather small, at most 20hp/tq, but on a high compression engine it can be much more. The only reason you would need to change your fuel system is if it is rusted and leaking. If it is in good shape, all you need to do is clean out the varnish from years of gasoline use, and it will be fine. Your fuel pump might need replaced depending on how old it is, but it is a good idea to replace it if its original right now anyway.
  23. You have to modify the carb to run E85, once you do that running gas will make it run far too rich on gas and that is a bad thing. Once you convert the carb, you have to swap a gas carb back on to run gas. Carburetors dont do well as flex fuel units, if you want the ability to switch back and forth easily, then you need to put electronic fuel injection on it. If you lose power then you have dont something wrong, ethanol usually makes more power than gas in the same engine, in boosted applications its is often far more power than gas. Even a low compression engine can gain as much as 20hp/tq from running ethanol instead of gas. All of my cars have picked up power and drivability running ethanol, none of them have lost power after the switch or with splash blending. I am running E85 and home brewed ethanol in my 1970 Pontiac GTO, and have been since 2007. it has the stock tank, lines, and runs a GM carb that I modified with a numbered drill set. Ethanol will clean the varnish and sludge that gasoline leaves out of your tank and lines, it has to go somewhere so it goes into the filter and pump. The way around that is to run 10% ethanol for a few weeks and it will clean the varnish out much slower so the pump and filter can handle it easier. Often the tanks will rust out while running gasoline, any water will sit at the bottom of the tank and that can cause problems. Once the varnish is cleaned out, it could start leaking if the varnish was thick enough to plug the holes. Ethanol on its own will not harm your tank or lines, but it will uncover any damage left from gasoline or water.
  24. I dont hate hybrids, they work quite well. The wife is a firefighter, she tells me the problem with hybrids is the lack of standardization for the power connections, and of course fires but fires are relatively rare in car accidents. Up here we seem to get quite a few car fires though, probably due to the remoteness and very few have been the result of collision damage, usually its a maintenance issue. The other thing is the structure, but most new cars have the high strength steel forming a cage around the occupants. I like electrics, lots of power and linear torque work great, most of my RC stuff is brushless electric. The problems for me are range, heat and corrosion. The roads are salted here, so electrics take a beating in winter. Its also 20+ miles to town, and the range of a plug in electric vehicle needed makes the vehicle more expensive the higher the range gets. I have a neighbor with a converted S10 that he charges with his windmill and solar, top speed is 45mph for the range needed to get into town and back on a single charge. Seriously cool setup though, and he lives off the grid entirely. Get the battery issues figured out, or just use them in urban environments and plug in electrics are great. I like the range and efficiency of a small very high compression ethanol fueled engine over electric. That is mostly because I spend most of my time in rural areas with relatively long distances between towns. I dont see it as a silver bullet, that everything needs to be powered by the same energy source. Use what is available and fits the area/environment. Even if you dont have electricity you can make ethanol. If I lived in a large city I would be all about an electric that doesnt use much energy while sitting in traffic. That just makes sense. It might sound nuts that I am working with a 7.5L V8 for an efficiency mule. There are reasons I decided to use it, such as how easy it is to get 13:1 compression with just a head swap, it was sitting here, the Pontiac head design has high velocity ports that enhance low and mid range torque, and I have a number of vehicles it can bolt into with out any extra effort or major changes. I figure if I can get 30mpg from an engine designed in the 50s that is bigger than most small truck engines, then it should be stupid easy to get the 54mpg from a smaller engine using the same principles. My biggest bitch about hybrids is they still use gasoline.
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