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ahto555 last won the day on February 1 2014

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  1. Hi! It is the same Siemens fuel composition sensor based on fluid capacitance. Continental bought about 5 years ago Siemens automotive division. If I have right information this sensor is now manufactured in Continental Mexico factory. This sensor also registrates fuel temperature. I think the only reason why car manufacturers switched to software implemented fuel composition recognition was cost of this sensor - 300 USD/pc at wholesale. I am absolutly agree no algorythm could beat physical sensor. At the moment here in Europa few companies have started manufacturing of conductivity based fuel composition sensors. The cost is 1/3 compare to Continental FFV sensor but any water in fuel screws up reading (shows higher ethanol content than it really is).
  2. I would recommend piggy back from Hungary - http://e85power.hu/en. The best conversion kit I have tried so fare. Fully programmable with PC, 6 different ethanol conversion possibilities, 3D maping (TPS, RPM) ect. Gabor is very nice fellow and will lead you through installation difficulties.
  3. I hope you did not forget mention about more consumtion!? Did you? My personal experience when converting is 20-30% (average 25%) more consumption. So at price levels 3 USD/gallon for E85 and 4 USD/gallon for reguar gasoline not much monay will be saved. Conversion kit with lambda signal(s) emulation could significantly lower more consumption if lean mixture at low rpm and engine load is used. In this case more consumption is in the 10% range.
  4. For reliable cold start and after start enrichment FFV kit should get quite precise (+-5 C) information about ENGINE TEMPERATURE! Temperature sensor insade box (PCB) or outside box DOES NOT WORK! We have tested different temperature sensors - thermistor, analog IC (like LM35) and digital IC (like DS18S20). All sensors are precise enough for this job. Question is how to make good sensor and to find good location. I have used ring lug terminals (like here http://www.klauke.com/fileadmin/pdf/Produkte/Klauke-E/01rohr_e.pdf) to make bolt on temperature sensors. Important thing is to find terminal with big enough opening to fit TO-92 package in and fill with epoxy. I bolt sensor directly on engine block. As a result difference between car coolant temperature sensor reading and FFV kit temperature sensor is only few degrees C. Even better solution is connection to engine coolant sensor and reading its voltage directly but then it needs some set-up calibration.
  5. I do not know you are talking from personal experiences or just have read about it but if we talk about spark plugs and ethanol cold start there is very big difference. My car is 4 cylinder Peugeot 406, waste spark. Standard spark plugs NGK. When changed to NGK IRIDIUM cold start on E85 was a big step forward. When tried PULSTAR plugs it got even better. Unfortunately one of PULSTAR plugs failed very quickly but this was few years ago. New PULSTAR plugs are more durable as I have heard. So most likely you would not get better milage or throttle response when changing to IRIDIUM, PLATINUM, PULSTAR plugs but better cold start when running your non FFV vechicle on E85 - absolutely!
  6. to fleebut Instead of such hocus-pocus it is much easier to use FFV kit which has regressive enrichment algorithm. Our kit has this algorithm and it works until engine temperature reaches +35C or car lambda sensor(s) reaches working temperature. I have no problem at all to put my car on gear and drive away without any hesitation right after cold start (even on hydrous ethanol)! Obormot you are basically right but real life is different from theory! E85 is not always 85% ethanol and 15% gasoline. I have measured ethanol/gasoline content and here in Estonia gasoline content was always less than 15%. Sometimes only few percents but still less. In Sweden people have measured E85 fuel blend ethanol content up to 92%!!! May be in USA it is different and E85 winter blend makes it even easier.
  7. Try following procedure which seems to work for most of cars: preignition 3-5 seconds, then short cranking for few seconds, if it does not fire up then turn ignition key back and wait 10-15 seconds (very important number!), then crank again without preignition. The only reliable cold start procedure for converted non FFV vehicles is injecting small amount of gasoline into intake manifold during cranking. Our FFV kit will support this feature. We are waiting for OEM full cone low pressure wide angle nozzle prototypes right now from China.
  8. I am not sure you are in lean-burn so to say. My own experiments showed long term fuel increase about 26% when driving on E85 (summer blend 85/15) compare to gasoline and when switched to pure hydrous ethanol last Summer consumption increase was very small in the range of 2-3%. So with hydrous 96% ethanol about 28% increase compare to gasoline. Car oxygen (lambda) sensor working as should. No lean mixture indication at any rpm.
  9. Clear difference between NGK normal plugs (less than 1000 km) and new NGK IRIDIUM IX. Reliable cold start minimum temperature drop about 5 C on E85 summer blend. Much better cold start at close to minimum temperatures. Have been thinking about PULSTAR plugs. Have someone tried with E85?
  10. You did not understand me. There are many kits (I could name more than 10) which have connection to cars original lambda sensor but ONLY ONE changes or manipulates the signal. Thats the difference! All others use it just as information source.
  11. Thats why I asked. To my knowledge only one electronic ethanol conversion kit which alternates lambda signal is available - ETOM from Ethanol Technology of Minnesota (USA). I can understand theoretically how ETOM works even I do not think it is safe to lean down so much at low rpm and lean down mixture at all at high rpm and engine load. The question is - how White Lightning kit leans down mixture about 10-20% without alternating car original lambda signal(s) and why cars ECU does not correct it to stoichiometric when driving in closed-loop?
  12. I have been watching this thread with big interest. I am not an EFI specialist but have tested all together close to 10 different electronic ethanol conversion kits on my own PEUGEOT and another five test cars since 2007. At another thread in this topic (http://e85vehicles.com/e85/index.php/topic,2366.0.html) Dan Lorenzo itself wrote: We have tested and consulted with many E85 kits in the market and have found that there is a 10 - 20% loss of fuel mileage when using E85. Normally our users see close to 20% loss of fuel mileage on initial setup up and closer to 10% loss after they become familiar with the conversion. This was a long hard process in figuring out this loss of fuel mileage for our individual customers and not until the addition of our Carchip data logger were we able to pin point this issue. With the Carchip data logger in place we see that our users were prone to accelerate their engines in the first 2 to 3 weeks and shortly then after they returned to normal driving habits. We have determined with the data collected from the Carchip data logger that our users were actually accelerating harder with E85 than they would normally accelerate before the conversion. Our answer to this is that our users were looking to validate the kit and the fuel by means of hard acceleration. Once they realize that their vehicles operated just as well or better on E85 they then returned to normal driving habits. Personally I lose closer to 20% simply because I need to grow up and drive my age. Long term fuel mileage loss 10% is only achievable when some lean-burn strategy at low rpm and engine load is used. My own tests showed 20-30% increase on E85 summer blend on different cars. Fuel tests showed 12-14% gasoline and rest anhydrous ethanol. When I am saying long term I mean constant fuel consumption monitoring during about 6 months period. My own car showed 26% increase from which few percents could be deducted as cold start did not work as it should. So I think this White Lightning kit double pulse algorithm just leans down the mixture and also cuts fuel consumption which is basically not bad strategy. At least not bad at low engine loads and low rpm range. There is a question to EFI specialists - why cars original lambda(s) does not correct this lean condition at closed-loop (I assume White Lightning kits owners does not drive CEL light constantly on ;D )?
  13. Hi! I have been using denatured hydrous ethanol (about 94% ethanol, the rest water and denaturant) in my PEUGEOT 406 with DUALFLEX (Brazil) FFV kit. First of all there is no big difference driving on E85 summer blend (about 15% gas and 85 anhydrous ethanol) or denatured ethanol. Mileage and car performance are more or less the same. It is no problem for kit to adjust according the fuel blend. DUALFLEX is fully automatic kit with narrow band (0...1V) oxygen/lambda sensor input and it's own temperature sensor. About cold start and ways to improve it. Seems to me that many people trying to reinvent the wheel. Do cars running on hydrous ethanol in Brazil preheat the fuel? No, the most common way is to use small additional gasoline tank to inject gas into intake manifold, during engine cranking, to enrich A/F mixture. If low pressure (about 2 bar or 30 psi), low capacity, very fine droplet full cone nozzle is used it is possible to achieve very good cold start performance even at low temperatures. I have achieved good cold start at temperatures down to -10 C. I have also tried fuel preheating in returnless fuel rail and it did not work well. So I am quite happy with my current setup.
  14. Hi Bart! Thanks for explanation! Do I understand correctly that your eTOM basically fools the ECU by sitting between oxygen sensor output and ECU's oxygen sensor input? Have you measured what is the AFR at lean-burn conditions? When EToM Pro converter will be available for sale?
  15. Most of FFV electronic kit manufacturers say that timing adjustment is not necessary. I have found this claim B.S. When I drive my Peugeot 406 (2,0l, 16 valve, 99/100 kw) on E85 at very high rpm (engine max is 7000 and red zone starts from 6000) then sometimes "Check Engine" light appears. The fault code is P0300 - Random/Multiple Cylinder Misfire Detected. I have got the same fault code with different FFV kits. My car has brand new NGK Iridium spark plugs and ignition coil pack and it does not happening when driving on pure gasoline or 70% gasoline/30% ethanol mix. As much as I have understood at low rpm the timing for gasoline and ethanol is nearly the same but at high rpm ethanol should be more advanced. I have been talking to Brazilian FFV kit manufacturer and they recommend timing advance module with adjustment 6...12 degrees more advanced. It should improve fuel economy and car overall performance (torque, power). My next setup will include timing advance processor as well.
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