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Examples of Flex-Fuel Vehicles (FFVs)

 
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Tesla Model 3


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#1 fleebut

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Posted 30 August 2017 - 07:49 AM

AAA '17 report on cost of vehicles per class. Electric was the highest cost per mile due to high purchase cost and high depreciation. Fuel costs made up for some of it. Maintenance for vehicles is not that big a deal anymore. They make vehicles better and with low maintenance. Another thing hurting the battery car is the low cost of fuel and the every higher mpg ratings. Emissions are steadily decreasing for this technology as well. Ethanol to the rescue to lower fuel carbon rating. Carbon rating of ethanol -34% currently over plain gasoline and expected to go aver -70% in 2020. And by the way the rating does include the bogus ILUC penalty, so in reality add -22% or so. So, the plain low cost ICE vehicle may do just as well in the future for environment concerns. The battery car needs cheap, lighter, and more powerful batteries. They need a breakthrough battery technology. It may happen and car manufacturers are betting that that vehicles will nonetheless utilize more battery power and will go more to electric drive. I do think most are thinking hydrogen will be the ultimate battery. 



#2 Billyk24

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Posted 07 August 2017 - 06:34 PM

The other issue is Tesla will be charging customers to "charge-up" their vehicle.  But at what price and how does this compare to liquid fuel?   Gee, would it be "safer" to obtain a hybrid with electric range in the three digit numbers plus an ICE than purely electric vehicle?  OOPs, this/these cars don't exist yet.

 



#3 jeepn30

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Posted 01 August 2017 - 10:12 PM

Well the model 3 has finally been released.  My spot in line is pretty close to the beginning of the queue, starting as soon as October.  I don't think I can pull the trigger, though, because I love my Model S too much, and can't afford both.  It's been interesting seeing the feedback from the car.  I see a bunch of people that are mad because a well optioned car costs a bunch more than 35k.  I look at that as no different than a new BMW 3 series or Mercedes C class; they nickel and dime you to death with options.  I am very interested in test driving one, as the minimalist interior is very intriguing.  500,000 preorders now, so we shall see how well they can ramp up production.  I believe infrastructure will be the key in making this car be a success.  If the service centers and superchargers are overloaded too much, Tesla will not fare well.  It will be interesting to see how they fare with the average customer, as most of their customers up until now have been very forgiving of Tesla's shortcomings because they had bought into Tesla's vision.  This is their make or break chance.


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#4 TD

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Posted 22 January 2017 - 09:19 PM

Most EV's warm or cool the battery as needed when plugged in. Charging will warm the battery in the winter, but might require cooling in the summer.


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#5 Billyk24

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Posted 20 January 2017 - 08:56 PM

The Tesla and Volt both have a dedicated heating and cooling system for the hybrid battery pack.   I believe both can use engine waste heat to help with colder temperatures.  If my hybrid battery temperature is too cold, then the MPG go down significantly and it takes a continuous driving to elevate the battery temperature in true winter conditions.


Edited by Billyk24, 20 January 2017 - 08:57 PM.


#6 fleebut

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Posted 17 January 2017 - 07:18 AM

I think Tesla made a big mistake with Solar City purchase. Also, the giga factory is troubling. I was in the field to make manufacturing cost estimates. Also, had much success within efficiency and cost reduction for process. Same with quality improvements, but within medium to small manufacturing. Some welding robots and a lot of computer controlled equipment. Anyways, I find it hard to understand what the Giga factory would accomplish. Automation is best achieved by large automotive whom have decades of experience with integrating and even developing equipment. Tesla would not have an advantage with scale here. So, why didn't large automotive go into the battery business? Because they are an auto supply company and soon to be a transportation company. More so in current times, the components of the car are quickly becoming off the shelf supplier route. Current auto companies purchase most of the hardware as that is the cheapest, highest quality path to building a car. Sure, they continue to manufacture their own sheet metal, engines, and transmissions as that continues to be the hallmark of brand loyalty. Consider, over the road trucks once manufactured all their components. Now, they all purchase Dana, Cummings, Eaton, etc components and assemble within their fiberglass body. These truck manufacturers had to do this to keep in business as to maximize value and quality. Automotive is following the same path. 

 

It looks to me that Tesla is hedging. They appear not to be fully invested within automotive production. If that should falter, they will have the giga factor or plain (solar panel) real estate. The BEV will probably follow the heavy truck supply route. The motor, battery, transmission, etc. probably not brand identified. The competition will be who has the most appealing aesthetic vehicle, best balance of cost and function. Prices and quality may not be that competitive as they all look and operate alike.      



#7 Billyk24

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Posted 17 January 2017 - 03:20 AM

Does the Tesla Model 3 have some form of battery heater to minimize the negative effect of true winter cold temperatures?  Does the new Chevy Bolt have this feature?  I would hate to lose 50% range of the electric drive just because of the outdoor temperature.



#8 jeepn30

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Posted 31 December 2016 - 09:24 PM

I have had my Model S now since the end of October.  What an amazing car.  It goes 0-60 faster than my Challenger with the 5.7 hemi.  It handles just as good as my 3 series BMW I owned in the past.  My kids fight over who's sitting in the rear facing seats (just like sitting "gunner" in the old station wagons).  The interface is so intuitive, so it's easy to operate.  I understand now why they have sold a bunch of these.  I wake up to a "full" charge (well, set at 90% for daily use per Tesla's recommendations) every morning.  Is it a perfect car? No, and believe we'll never see one.  Range does take a hit in the winter, about 20 to 30% (or almost 50% if you just do short trips on a cold battery in the real cold, like 0 degrees F.  Once in a while my phone unpairs from the car's bluetooth.  My commute is 10 miles to work, so the range is not an issue.  I've spent a few days running errands all day, and still don't have any issues with range.  

 

What I don't miss is things like oil changes.  Had to bring the Mrs. car in for that.  The stealership tries to tell me things like power steering lines are leaking (just as my dad's van and my jeep was 6 months ago, in the same week we had oil changes on all 3 of those cars).  

 

Tesla has a decent thermal management system of its battery, which supposedly prolongs life of the battery.  Somebody uses one as a taxi between LA and Las Vegas, with 200,000 miles and only 6% range loss.  All while charging on Superchargers only.

 

The thing I like is that Tesla is pushing the envelope.  They have a great looking car on the market with performance that can match Supercars (if you have enough money).  The leaf, i-miev, and Bolt are basically compliance cars.  The leaf is truly ugly, the i-miev looks like an egg, and the bolt looks like a shoe.  None of these other auto manufacturers have really pursued electric cars.  Why?  They don't want to cannibalize their own sales of conventional cars, which is their cash cow.  The whole way the EV1 program was scrapped still leaves a bad taste in my mouth from GM.  Tesla has done something nobody else has done with an electric car- create demand for them.

 

Just like ethanol, I see electric cars as being PART of the solution.  I don't believe a single technology will reign supreme (unless big oil finds a way to rid alternatives).  Choices are good, and hope to see these choices as time goes on.  


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#9 fleebut

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Posted 22 October 2016 - 05:43 AM

Consider the logistics required for battery car operation and trip planning. Life span of expensive batteries are proportional to many environmental factors. Owners need to go to school and be disciplined. Your careless drivers could really damage the vehicles battery lifespan. I read lifespan experience of Tesla drivers could be as short as 50,000 miles or calculated at maximum of 300,000 miles. When one factors in loss of capacity of battery and the desire to maximize battery lifespan, the vehicle sweet spot of consumer value is 2rd car status, short trip metro. Round trips no more than 50-70 miles one way. Daily drives limited to 150 miles. Max battery lifespan limited to 80% charge, safety factor, limit DOD, and avoid reliance of remote charge stations. Fast charging is not a smart way to maintain your battery long lifespan. Charging stations are few and need many hours of hookup to make any difference. Most probably already dedicated to a few daily commuters. The car does well in short trip metro, with operators having exact knowledge of travel requirement and weather conditions that will have major impact of length of trip plans.

 

Could one use the battery car for 80% of travel needs. Probably. Could they then rent a ICE car for the other 20%? Most would say no to that. First the hassle such as, terminal transportation, shopping and evaluating offers, risk of typical gottcha contracts, and the overhead of required strict adherence to short travel plans. Most of us do not want such restrictions and hassles. How about the autonomous vehicle or Uber? This technology will impact the battery car more than traditional vehicle. Public transportation? No one likes that option and it will slowly dissolve per lack of interest or need.

 

Think of the heavy duty truck energy requirements, towing vehicles, hauling trucks, and long distance travel vehicles. Hybrid technology will improve their efficiency, but batteries could off little substantive operating energy. Hydrogen battery could, but the economics of ICE powered by liquid fuel are hard to compete with. Convenience, another big plus for conventional vehicle owners. Maintenance, may be a plus for vehicles operating with reliable technology, simple to service, and repair. Fuel costs that already have the burden of full tax load may offer little cost penalty. Consider,  electrical energy will steadily increase in cost given the costly alternatives to generate green power, expensive and costly to maintain grid that desperately needs updating and efficiency improvements. This all points to the need of improving the production of biofuels. To improve the efficiency and green quotient of the fuel. If one wants to improve environmental factors of transportation, these fuels are just as important as the battery car trajectory. We need to quit fantasizing of battery solutions doing it all and cheap power. Those outcomes will never happen. We need to convince more government employees, for example, that sabotaging the ethanol solution will not improve your beloved battery car future.        



#10 fleebut

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Posted 20 October 2016 - 04:26 PM

The Tesla 3 may be a good battery car, but the Chevy bolt is already a better value car and available. Is 39$ k or $30k after tax payer support unreasonable? Maybe not, with today's incredibly cheap money and the if one believes the battery car will drastically lower maintenance cost and improve longevity.  Is the very very inconvenient short range vehicle with minimal recharge stations and long recharge time a deal breaker for most? Yes, for most. If you love new technology and excited to accommodate such a vehicle. Well, go for it. Write it off as entertainment. More practical people will purchase a less expensive and proven car. If your attempting to save the planet, you could do more and quicker, meaning now, by fueling up with ethanol. If you are looking to the environment future, well, again ethanol will be ahead of the grid for a long time. Meaning the grid will never catch up. It's a choice, and I do like the battery car, just I can't justify such a car with my particular transportation needs. I need to downsize to one vehicle, that would probably be a Ford Eccoboost for good mileage and excellent towing abillity.     






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