Topic: large scale conversion of used cars/trucks to FFV

[HuskerFlex]

I was just curious what sort of liability a dealership would have if they started adding a e85 conversion kit to each vehicle that crossed their lot?  If the people that bought the cars didn't have e85 near them, or for some reason beyond any of US, didn't want to use e85... they would not HAVE to use e85...

If legally it was possible, this might be something that a state ethanol board could look into underwriting, or some grant for...

I'd think that if you were to go to any of the conversion kit makers and say, "I need 25 of these, and will need to get another 6 a month for the next couple years..." they might be able to offer some sort of bulk discount....

Any thoughts?

[1outlaw]

Thumpin- this EFI system you are thinking about for $1500- that sounds a lot better than a Rons Flying Toilet for the same money since that includes a brainbox and should be a lot better for a daily driver. Am I understanding what you are saying? Sounds interesting.

[Thumpin455]

Watching the duty cycle in real time on the laptop plugged into the car as you drive around reveals the injectors being a bit small for E100/E85 use for much other than cruising around at light throttles. Im not ripping on piggyback converters, they work pretty well especially when there is some headroom on the injectors. Lots of people have converted their LS1 to ethanol, quite often a turbo, blower or nitrous is involved and those require larger injectors even with gasoline. There is a wealth of information on that particular engine, and people spell out how to convert it. For the most part its some tuning on a laptop and larger injectors on the NA engines.

Its the only OBD2 EFI engine I have messed with, but my 92 F150 will run E85 without modification on the stock program. So will the 92 Blazer with a 4.3, it actually runs much better on E85 with the tired engine it has. Also since I produce ethanol in small batches, I tend to be overly cautious with the tune on my homebrew, and I havent tried it in the EFI engines as yet, mainly because I havent made enough to do enough testing. It works quite well with the low compression 455 Pontiac in my 70 GTO though, it doesnt have injectors in the Qjet.

I want to try out a couple of these new EFI systems for older cars, they are supposed to be self learning and easily replace a carb on the same intake. They run about $1500 and OEM style EFI is over $3500 for my engines, so its attractive if it will allow me to do the things I want to with ethanol. I know they are compatible with it, they have to be since E10 is everywhere now and if the seals and parts will survive E10 they will probably survive E100.  The cars that might get them are the 67 Cougar and the 65 GTO, or the 79 Trans Am that is getting a dedicated high compression (13:1+) ethanol engine along with an OD trans and 2.41 gears. Its the mileage mule, intended to see how much mileage I can squeeze out of a large iron V8 in an old car. I am pretty sure with a few tricks I can do better than Corey has with his conversion. I have gotten 20+ from carbs and low CR 455s on gasoline so its not too much of a stretch.

I build cars, its about all I do other than figure out better ways to make fuel, heat, electricity, and grow my own food. Im just tired of everything I get to live on going to energy bills, I would much rather put it into the old cars I have laying around. I have the education and experience so even though I cant work anymore I may as well use it.

[HuskerFlex]

My 1999 Lumina 3.1 has had nothing but e10 in it for the firs 100k of it's life.  I can't vouch for the early years (was my wife's car, and her grandfathers before that) but I know I've never changed the fuel filter in the last 8 years... 

I started splash blending e85 to make a blend of e40-e50.  I've been running this for the last 2 years, around 28k miles.  The last oil change they told me I needed a new fuel filter because the old one was "rusty"... 

I figured that since I've been blending this could very well be.  After I told them to go ahead and replace it... and I paid for it, they showed me the old one... the OUTSIDE of the filter had a bit of rust ON it... inside was nice and clean as if it was new...

If I had a backbone, I'd have said something... I just figured it was probable not a bad thing to do since I have been blending my own fuels...

[TinkerFreak]

Liability I think would be the main problem of a used car dealership doing such a thing.

We know there'd be an issue or two of clogged fuel filters which is no biggie.

Changing old GM fuel pumps is a real pain. You have to drop the tank to do it. I have yet to see any car that doesn't need a new filter sock or fuel pump after 10-15 years on any fuel--E0, E10, E85. The cleaning action is something to consider but is very manageable. Include the maintenance for it in the purchase price.

[1outlaw]

Quote from Thumpin;

"Asking someone with an LS1 not to go WOT is like asking them not to have sex when there is a willing and able partner right there."

 

[Jonny Energy]

Some engines have injectors that are barely adequate on gas, such as the LS1. When running E85 in them you run into problems with duty cycle above 3/4 throttle.

  Of course some vehicles will run into a problem if not tuned right or not using a kit.  If there is racing involved of course bigger injectors would be ideal.   I have tested and used our kits on 5 different vehicles and part of the test is to go from 0 to 60 with the peddle floored. Never had a lean problem yet.  I am curious how you know the LS1 has inadequate injectors?

  I know it is hard to believe an inexpensive kit works well on the vast majority of vehicles but it does.  Just like it is hard for most to believe E85 doesn't damage engine parts but we all know it actually keeps them cleaner.

[fleebut]

I have a friend who operated a successful used car dealership selling only Ford Escorts, back then. He learned to put minimum into mechanics, instead, putting money into cosmetics the best sales tool. He repainted most of the cars. Customers wanted good looking, they purchase a dream or image. The sale is emotional. Most customers not mechanical or good with money. This is the reason so many females purchase the Jeeps 4wd with poor mpg. Is this a curse on our country? No, absolutely not. Business is always suppling emotional needs of consumers. They want to be sold. After all, the reason for making money is to feel good when spending it. Awarding ourselves can be a good motivator to be more productive. Business should be allowed to supply wants and needs of consumers. Some of it high efficiency for potential savings, yet we should also consider the service cost for pushing high efficiencies past rock solid reliable. High replacement costs and service cost a pollution on environment, also.  Maybe customers would light up with desire of a E-85 performance image? How about producing transportation that fills an image of power? Not cheaper fuel as a compromise? Would the SUV and high performance market be perfect non flex E-85 machines. A image boost to ethanol? Maybe lawmakers could deregulate this vehicle classification and allow maximum experimenting and small production break even. An industrial cutting edge classification vehicle. A professional auto. TinkerFreak auto company.

[Thumpin455]

Some engines have injectors that are barely adequate on gas, such as the LS1. When running E85 in them you run into problems with duty cycle above 3/4 throttle. Asking someone with an LS1 not to go WOT is like asking them not to have sex when there is a willing and able partner right there. With certain engines you need to upgrade the injectors, and even a piggy back kit wont fix it. You can run E85 in a stock unmodified LS1 no problem, provided you never get over 3000rpm under load. Once you do it kicks on the lean code and starts over fueling and running into duty cycle limits.  Actually with LS1 Edit, Jet Tuner, or HPTuner you dont need a piggy back, you can alter the fuel and spark maps and upload it to the vehicle, then if you have to run gasoline again, you can put the stock program back in provided you saved it. Its one of the things I am working on with my LS1 powered 98 Formula.

One size doesnt always fit everything, and even if it 'works' it might not be the best or a practical solution. There is a big difference between running and running well, and ethanol tends to mask rich or lean conditions and drivability issues. 

In addition to that and what TD mentioned, we still have availability issues with E85 and we will have for some time. Why would a dealership go to the expense of adding things to cars that people might not be able to utilize and a significant cost to them? It would cut into the profit from selling the used cars, nobody wants to throw more parts at a car than they absolutely have to so they can sell it. That might change if oil dried up and all we had was ethanol, then they would need to modify what they had in inventory just to sell it.

I am all for every vehicle being at least flex fuel and a large percentage being E85/E100. I would actually prefer every new car to run on E100, but we are a long way from that happening for multiple reasons.

[TinkerFreak]

I have no idea how you would "approve" approximately 100 different ways to skin this particular cat...other that some kind of blanket legislation.

As long as the car passes visual and the sniffer (IM240), let it go! I enjoy beating California emissions standards into a pulp because most hardcore hot rodders think you need to fail emissions to go fast...

[TD]

I was just curious what sort of liability a dealership would have if they started adding a e85 conversion kit to each vehicle that crossed their lot?

I don't have a problem with adding it to vehicles with the owner's approval, but not to every vehicle, IMO that's asking for trouble for the reasons I stated.

[Jonny Energy]

 TD,
  With OBD2 (96 and newer) Vehicles, there is no problem running rich on gas with the right adjustment.   How often does the general public run at WOT anyway.  There is enough adjustment within the vehicles ECU to correct and lean out on gasoline.  Is it as good as a factory FFV ...no, but pretty dang close. 
  The liability issue is easily cleared up by having the customer sign a waiver understanding that it is an aftermarket kit and explaining how it works.
  There is a few dealers that offer our kits as an option for the customer.  A hurdle is to get the right information to the customer.  Most salesman selling new FFV have no clue on what E85 is and what advantages it has let alone Used Car Dealers.
  The biggest hurdle is getting the EPA to do a blanket approval on E85 kits.  The EPA knows our kits work as they have had personal experience with it.  That's why they have never gone after someone with a conversion kit.  Let's face it, big oil has the EPA and our politicians in their back pocket.  Big Oil would never let this happen and Auto companies would feel like it would take away from new car sales. 
  Its all about the Benjamins!

[TD]

Bear in mind it's not that easy...

If the vehicle has no history of ethanol and high mileage, you might just send that vehicle home and have it come back a few weeks later with a plugged gas filter. Also, they may not be too thrilled with the cold starting in the winter, which is often tolerable in cold temps, but not as fool proof as a gas car.

Also, a converted FFV doesn't work quite the same as a factory FFV vehicle... sure you can run either fuel in it, but conversions usually have a pot in the unit that is set to optimize it for the fuel you hope to use. In other words, it might be optimized for E85, but if you never run E85 in it, it'll be too rich at WOT.

My brother-in-law just bought a 2009 Ford Excursion (again) and this time it was FFV. I wanted to give him a little lecture if he wasn't running E85, since he was a retired farmer (and it's un-American to use just gas), but it turns out he was already filling it every chance he got. I sent him the link to add E85 stations to his Garmin, which also should help a lot. Not everyone will fill with E85, just because the vehicle is capable.