Topic: Sulferic Acid for Heating ethanol-- Cold starts (Read 4610 times)

Dan M · « **on:** August 29, 2009, 05:53:43 PM »

I was flipping through the channels the other day and on Discovery Channel some scientist was demonstrating the heating ability of sulfuric acid.. He had 8 oz of water and with a eye dropper put 1-2 drops of acid in the water.. in less than 15 seconds the water was steaming and over 175 F !

Any of you Chemist see here something like that could be useful for ethanol cold starts ...any chemical that might mix well with ethanol, not harm any fueling components and have a similar reaction bringing the temp up 50 degrees or so ? Just a wild hair thought.. not even sure how you could even mix it when needed if there was something that could be sued

Dan M · « **Reply #31 on:** September 02, 2009, 08:20:27 PM »

Not sure how this works guys.. The computer already thinks it is cold and is enriching but wont start until 3,4,5 cranks ..how would adding another sensor make any difference ?

Yes I understand adding a second sensor IF I am adding a coolant heater because the computer will think it is the engine is already warm and wouldn't supply enough fuel.. but adding the second sensor simply brings coold enrichment back to where it is without the heater

unless I am missing something?

Quote from: rusty70f100 on September 02, 2009, 05:12:52 PM

Quote from: EMAS on September 02, 2009, 04:00:53 PM
Even so fooling the engine with a second coolant temp sensor or a resistor that will modify the signal to the computer may help with cold starting when using a engine heater. Keeping in mind that the FCS used on early FFV reports not only the E% but the temp of the fuel as well so it's fuel during cranking is based on both the coolant and fuel temp.

I think that may be the best option. That would be, placing a variable resistor in line with the coolant temperature sensor, to fool the computer into thinking that it's colder than it actually is. This would be controlled by a knob on the dashboard. When starting on a cold morning, turn the knob, computer injects more fuel, engine starts. After it warms a bit, turn the knob back to zero resistance so the computer reads the right temperature. Simple. All the FFV's do is inject more fuel; why wouldn't it work on yours?

As a point of reference I had an old Ford 390 with Holley TBI fuel injection starting on E85 in winter. All I had to do was turn up the cold temperature enrichment to provide more fuel. No fancy heaters, ether injection systems, or anything like that required.

rusty70f100 · « **Reply #30 on:** September 02, 2009, 05:12:52 PM »

Quote from: EMAS on September 02, 2009, 04:00:53 PM

Even so fooling the engine with a second coolant temp sensor or a resistor that will modify the signal to the computer may help with cold starting when using a engine heater. Keeping in mind that the FCS used on early FFV reports not only the E% but the temp of the fuel as well so it's fuel during cranking is based on both the coolant and fuel temp.

I think that may be the best option. That would be, placing a variable resistor in line with the coolant temperature sensor, to fool the computer into thinking that it's colder than it actually is. This would be controlled by a knob on the dashboard. When starting on a cold morning, turn the knob, computer injects more fuel, engine starts. After it warms a bit, turn the knob back to zero resistance so the computer reads the right temperature. Simple. All the FFV's do is inject more fuel; why wouldn't it work on yours?

As a point of reference I had an old Ford 390 with Holley TBI fuel injection starting on E85 in winter. All I had to do was turn up the cold temperature enrichment to provide more fuel. No fancy heaters, ether injection systems, or anything like that required.

1outlaw · « **Reply #29 on:** September 02, 2009, 04:20:47 PM »

EMAS said;
"One cavet with a engine heater since the amount of fuel injected during cranking is solely based on the coolant temp, heating the engine will reduce the amount of fuel injected. This is why may engine heaters say not for use on fuel injected vehicles."

Yes I forgot that little bit

EMAS · « **Reply #28 on:** September 02, 2009, 04:00:53 PM »

My point on the stepped approach is that once the temps drop to -10 it is going to be a long time before it will be a comfortable temp to be getting under the hood to do any serious work.

As far as ether damaging the engine, the ether start systems let out a metered amount with each push of the button so there isn't a risk of putting too much in by holding down the button too long.

I have never seen a gas engine damaged by too much ether and I've given some pretty long shots. A diesel is a whole different matter, not that I've seen one damaged but my experience with diesels is much less than with gas engines. Since it is ignited by compression, and glow plugs are sometimes present, there is the risk it of it igniting way too soon. So too heavy a heavy dose can cause the rods to bend, the starter to break or cranking speed to drop off significantly. That is why the system is designed to give a metered dose with each push of the button.

When I use it to start a diesel it is quick bursts down the intake while the engine is being cranked. When starting a gas engine it is a big shot, or even soaking the foam filter of a small engine, and then crank the engine. Due to the low compression of a gas engine it will only light due to the spark, and due to the throttle the cyl won't be any where near full.

One cavet with a engine heater since the amount of fuel injected during cranking is solely based on the coolant temp, heating the engine will reduce the amount of fuel injected. This is why many engine heaters say not for use on fuel injected vehicles. On the other hand many FI vehicles can be equipped with engine heaters from the factory, and Ford included it on all of their early FFVs, so there is good reason to believe that an engine heater will help with cold weather starts when running on E85. Of course Ford went so far as to include a E% gauge on the dash of the early Tauri and give instructions on how much straight gas to splash blend with a full tank to improve starting performance in cold weather, before seasonally adjusted E85 was the norm.

Even so fooling the engine with a second coolant temp sensor or a resistor that will modify the signal to the computer may help with cold starting when using a engine heater. Keeping in mind that the FCS used on early FFV reports not only the E% but the temp of the fuel as well so it's fuel during cranking is based on both the coolant and fuel temp.

1outlaw · « **Reply #27 on:** September 02, 2009, 02:30:58 PM »

EMAS said;
"The stepped approach sounds good on the one hand but upping the ante would be a real pain when the temps drop another level and you are trying to step it up when it is -10 outside if you don't have a heated garage to do it in. "

I was thinking the same but trying to keep it simple. At -20 real temp and minus 50 windchill with a 3' snowdrift on the truck- working on it would not be fun but I think Dan will be inside enjoying his pellet stove

I like the heater hose type idea better than a ether only route- combined would be good insurance. Heat is easier on the engine at cold start- less chance of giving it too much juice and doing damage. Perhaps EMAS you could answer this- since being a kid everyone says- "do not give it too much ether- you'll blow the head !"--have you ever seen this?
Can one do this with a 6 second shot? Is the lighter gas engine more subject to damage than even a diesel they were saying this about?

EMAS · « **Reply #26 on:** September 01, 2009, 11:07:13 PM »

The stepped approach sounds good on the one hand but upping the ante would be a real pain when the temps drop another level and you are trying to step it up when it is -10 outside if you don't have a heated garage to do it in.

The KATS ether injection system would probably be the simplest and most effective to implement. It would particularly shine should you find the need to leave it parked for a few hours in sub zero temps w/o the ability to plug it in.

Of course the circulating heater has the added benefit of providing some instant heat in the cab.

In regards to the price of OE heater OUCH, do they give you a jar of Vaseline with that

? I particularly like the part on the page where they say "in the Nissan universe this part is called". I was thinking of trying to obtain a used one. You might try Car-Part.com. That part isn't likely inventoried in their system but you can use it to find a wrecking yard in CA that has for example the TBI and then call them to see if they have the heater and how much they want for it with shipping. The caution remains to not combine that with the ether starting system.

In regards to the diesel intake air preheater I'm not sure where it is mounted on the Dodge trucks but on the refer units I work on it is mounted between the aircleaner and intake, but those have a remote mount filter with a duct between it and the intake. The other thing to consider is that is used instead of glow plugs and since a diesel has no throttle it ingests a full cyl of air on every stroke compared to a gas engine that ingests much less than a cyl full due to the throttle and the 3.0 about 1/2 of a 5.9 so you should get enough heat from one of those. Of course mounting it with the "conventional" air cleaner system may be harder.

The only problem I see with trying to use one of the pad heaters to heat the injectors directly is getting enough surface contact while avoiding restricting the air flow.

The circulating heater you posted the link to shows that the inlet comes from your choice of block or rad drain, or lower heater hose with additional parts and then they provide a "T" to connect it to a 3/4 or 5/8 heater hose so you just need to pick the right wattage for your size cooling system/climate. Unless of course you have 1/2" heater hose, which I highly doubt, then you would need a couple of adapters. The fact that it is thermostatically controlled means that it should prevent excessive electricity consumption.

Edit: One other thing to consider if you are going to install a engine heater would be to add some insulation to the hood, or an engine blanket to trap that heat.

1outlaw · « **Reply #25 on:** September 01, 2009, 10:51:11 PM »

I am not sure of this Dan- but with a quick peek- it looks like they are all set up for 5/8" hose and the different models are simply different amperage (and likely diifferent pumping rates) for different coolant capacities. In the old days one had fewer choices- one or two handing on the wall in the auto parts store. Your engine is mid-sized- look for a heater that seems right for a six cylinder. If she sits outside and in the open away from windbreak- go a size bigger perhaps. Look at the amp requirements now and make sure your circuit can handle it- also start looking for an outside type timer that can handle at least 10% more load than the heater will draw-- if you wish to limit on time.

Dan M · « **Reply #24 on:** September 01, 2009, 10:03:01 PM »

Circulating Heater ..So they don't have the Nissan listed... why wouldn't it work if I get the right size hoses ? Just a pump right ?

http://www.warehouseautoparts.com/Specialty_Line/Kat/kats_circulating_tank_heater_12010_12050_13080_13100_13150_13200_13222.htm

http://www.warehouseautoparts.com/Specials/Kat/Kat's_circulation_tank_heater_p68-50.pdf

1outlaw · « **Reply #23 on:** September 01, 2009, 09:34:21 PM »

I like EMAS's idea of using the old heater hose line type unit. Back in the old carb and pure gas era I had them on my car. I might first just start with that (w/o the fuel line heater portion) and then if it turns out you need more - scale in by adding that element or possibly a loop of this hot water around the throttle body. I think the hose heater alone will be enough provide you allow enough heater on time. One thing you can do if you are concerned about electric power consumption overnight is put it on a timer (check amp capacity of timer). A few years back I built a timer/ thermometer/ magnetic contactor rig that could put power to multiple diesel engine block heaters. (They ate power big time). this rigged device could sense outside temp for cut in, and be be pretimed for 10 minutes to 12 hours of heat. Extreme cold conditions with high winds may take 4-6 hours of heat and a cool quiet night might only need 30-45 minutes. It really is quite simple to build if you cannot find a heavy duty simple timer.

Dont waste money on the oil pan heater- you are heating the oil with an air space above to insulate and keep the heat from rising to where you need it. The only direct conductive path for this heat is to travel up the connecting rods- thru the pins- then to the piston skirt. Better to heat the block around it and have it ready than depend on cranking to move the warm oil around. Now if you told me you use SAE 30 oil year-round I might tell you----- $:-\$

Dan M · « **Reply #22 on:** September 01, 2009, 09:12:37 PM »

BTW..left side ..see the Mixture Heater...

Yes I am also looking for one of those .. Found it ..but not paying $500 http://www.courtesyparts.com/16174-insulator-carburetor-truck-d21-1988-1989-vg30-p-191413.html

Dan M · « **Reply #21 on:** September 01, 2009, 09:01:58 PM »

Well for starters.. I have been trying a couple things in the mornings.. Using a Air Heater of any sort looks like will only work if I can direct the heat directly in the throttle body.. Used a Hairdryer and that worked great .. BUT only if the hot air was going directly in the throttle body.

I tried placing it in the Air Intake as close to the air cleaner as possible but no help..and the reason I believe is the Air Filter blocking most of the heat/ tempering the air flow maybe a better term

So I'm not sur eif one of the diesel air intake heaters would make much of a difference ?

But with the Air Cleaner cover off it got me thinking about the heater "pads" again... Once you take the air cleaner off The 2 fuel injectors are right there..just a aluminum cover over them ..sitting right in the middle of the throttle body

See any issues with simply "wrapping" the heater body over the Fuel Injectors cover ? drill a hole for the wiring through the Air Cleaner cover (and seal it)

You can get the pads in 25 to 150 watts ..

Thoughts on that apprach? keeping the injectors way

Kats also has a Ether assist kit.. http://www.warehouseautoparts.com/Specialty_Line/Kat/Kats_33102_Ether_bush_button_system.htm

Which would be nice because don't need to worry about plugging in.. so If I park for 4 hours somewhere on a 10 degree below winter day .. the ether kit ..it will start.

EMAS · « **Reply #20 on:** September 01, 2009, 07:50:08 PM »

I was going to suggest a diesel intake air heater in your earlier thread but then I went on vacation

. That would be a good option for certain if you could find one in that price range. Another option is to use one of the ones that screws in sort of like a spark plug, used on earlier Duramax diesels.

To control the grid style you will need a continous duty relay the Ford starter relay is an intermitient duty unit and draws quite a bit of power and will heat up considerably if energized for more than a couple of seconds. Look for a "dual battery relay" for Fords, it looks the same but has a higher resistance coil for longer engagement times.

Another option on heating the air or more correctly the air fuel mix would be to see if you can track down one of the OE fuel heater/base gaskets for the Nissan 3.0 TBI rigs then you would just have to replace the current gasket and rig up an appropriate sized relay to operate it.

The other thing I was thinking of is to use one of the circulating engine heaters, the type that goes in a heater hose. I would put it in the to heater core hose and then make a fuel heater to put in the heater core out hose. Purchase a length of brass pipe, nipples to size it to fit the heater hose, a length of steel line and nipples to fit the fuel hose. Wrap the steel line tightly around the brass pipe and then preferably solder them together. The circulating heater shouldn't get the fuel too hot if it is separated by the heater core which will dissipate some of the heat. If placed a proper distance from the TBI the hot fuel should be moved to the TBI and be there once you start cranking, as well as take some of the chill off of the TBI fuel "bowl" as well. The thermal mass of the pipe should provide heat to the fuel from the tank as it passes through it. Once it is running it shouldn't put excessive heat into the fuel for normal running since the pump runs at full speed all the time.

You may need to do some experimenting with the distance between the circulating heater and the fuel heater as well as the length of the fuel hose between the filter, fuel heater, and TBI to get the optimum amount of heat into the fuel. Investing in a non-contact infrared thermometer would be a good idea so you can read the actual temp at different locations. Of course you will need to make sure to keep the vehicle heater on "hot" since the Nissan uses a water valve to regulate the heaters output temp. Though I guess you could use the OE heater valve to regulate the fuel heaters temp. The bonus is instant heat and possibly eliminating or at least reducing the frost on the windshield in more moderate temps if you leave the heater control on defrost.

You may need to re-route the fuel line for summer time use. However since the heater valve will all but stop the flow of the coolant through the heater loop it may not be necessary. The infrared thermometer would come in handy here as well.

Either way heating the engine block, fuel and/or air is probably going to be the most cost effective way to improve your cold starting.

A freeze plug style engine heater was part of the FFV package on early Taurui and all Rangers, of course this was before the common use of seasonally adjusted E85 blends.

Adding one of the glue on pads or magnetic heaters to the tank itself wouldn't be a bad idea either. Or even adding a length of steel fuel line doubled back on itself multiple times and then wrapped in one of the glue on pads.

Just make sure that if you go with one of the liquid fuel heater methods that you use FI rated hose and clamps for the connections between the fuel filter, heater, and TBI. Standard fuel line can't handle the pressure and the common worm gear clamps will compromise the FI hose when clamped tight enough to contain the pressure.

I doubt the use of an oil pan heater whether magnetic or glue on, will help any with the actual starting issue of E85 since the heat won't be in the engine itself where it can help with fuel evaporation. A freeze plug or circulating heater will help since it will bring the temp of the cylinders and intake up.

Dan M · « **Reply #19 on:** August 30, 2009, 03:57:22 PM »

Actually the Truck is a 6 banger ..

Ok ..I'll give that a try..seems like there should be a small fan on those heaters but I guess vacuum takers care of "sucking" the heat in

Quote from: Corey872 on August 30, 2009, 11:27:37 AM

That would be my first thought. The only trick would be to make something out of metal which can stand the heat and hold that heater securely somewhere close to your intake manifold. You might not need a second battery - I would check the resistance, or maybe the seller could even tell you - then calculate how much power you're going to get at 12V. After all, you don't need to light diesel in a 5.9L engine - just add some supplimentary heat in your 4-cyl. Might check around for a starter solenoid off an older ford vehicle, too. Ford used a completely separate solenoid so that would give you an easy way to run the high current to the heater. But I don't think it's going to get much more simple than that. A momentary switch, solenoid, heater and a couple wires to hook it all up.

Solenoid:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/FORD-SOLENOID_W0QQitemZ320416518657QQcmdZViewItemQQptZMotors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories?hash=item4a9a501201&_trksid=p4506.c0.m245

Corey872 · « **Reply #18 on:** August 30, 2009, 11:27:37 AM »

That would be my first thought. The only trick would be to make something out of metal which can stand the heat and hold that heater securely somewhere close to your intake manifold. You might not need a second battery - I would check the resistance, or maybe the seller could even tell you - then calculate how much power you're going to get at 12V. After all, you don't need to light diesel in a 5.9L engine - just add some supplimentary heat in your 4-cyl. Might check around for a starter solenoid off an older ford vehicle, too. Ford used a completely separate solenoid so that would give you an easy way to run the high current to the heater. But I don't think it's going to get much more simple than that. A momentary switch, solenoid, heater and a couple wires to hook it all up.

Solenoid:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/FORD-SOLENOID_W0QQitemZ320416518657QQcmdZViewItemQQptZMotors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories?hash=item4a9a501201&_trksid=p4506.c0.m245