Topic: Re: Novi, Michigan (Read 2275 times)

rufus · « **on:** January 24, 2009, 02:08:59 PM »

Need Some Help.

Robert Rapier finally broke down and wrote a post over at the Oil Drum admitting that ethanol can be more efficient (due to its high octane) in an ICE than gasoline.

It's a pretty decent comment thread, and we could use some input.

http://www.theoildrum.com/node/5010#comments_top

rufus · « **Reply #22 on:** January 25, 2009, 06:18:34 PM »

Well, that was fun. You all made some really, really good posts; and a few lurkers even felt safe coming out of the woodwork with reasonable comments.

I think you're right, though. I doubt that we'll have that opportunity again, for awhile.

1outlaw · « **Reply #21 on:** January 25, 2009, 05:09:42 PM »

I do not think Robert will ever post a "ethanol is not quite as bad as thought" writeup again- at least until he finds something he can sell as irrefutable.

I have watched the "Oil Drum" for several years- what a bunch of "educated idiots" that many are there. Sort of like what one runs into at Universities- got it all from books and cannot see real world because they do not live in it. I avoided posting in the past because I did not wish to waste my breath- right now is different as we seem to have had enough "post density" to have impact. Honestly- after 20 some years in energy distribution (primarily oil) I cannot see what these guys so love about their precious declining asset called crude. Over at Thumpin's favorite Pontiac forum- the same- what I really had to laugh about was the guy who said-- "what about chemicals?" Does he not see that cutting crude's use for fuel saves it for chemicals? Does he not know that plastics and nearly any chemical can be made from biomass? I liked your delay Thumpin on posting after planting the seed- first they laid it all out, then they chewed up each other, then the moderates posted- then you

rufus · « **Reply #20 on:** January 25, 2009, 04:43:34 PM »

Outlaw, Hotrod, and Dragonwhip already have their heads reeling; and I've been keeping RR occupied with our usual tit-for-tat, mine is bigger'n your'n firefight.

rufus · « **Reply #19 on:** January 25, 2009, 04:37:58 PM »

No, you do your OWN dirty work. A lot of them have the "Mute" button pushed on me, already.

Don't worry about offending That bunch. They're not happy unless someone is telling them that they're sub-moronic.

Thumpin455 · « **Reply #18 on:** January 25, 2009, 01:29:57 PM »

Quote from: rufus on January 25, 2009, 01:28:23 PM

You "Poked him" good, too. I heard him Grunt.

THUMPIN: Thanks for the link, and the essay. You've gotta go post that over at the Drum. I gave a link, somewhere. That's a neat comparison between firewood, gasoline, and dynamite. Makes a great point.

You post it. Its all from David Blume's book. I will get so riled up it will only hurt our cause. I had to wait 3 days before I could post my essay on Performance Years and not be all fangs and claws while writing.

Thumpin455 · « **Reply #17 on:** January 25, 2009, 01:28:34 PM »

Just perusing that thread a bit, and reading the first couple entries he made, this stood out to me.

Quote

There are still thorny issues surrounding soil erosion, aquifer depletion, and the food supply

All of those are problems we face even without ethanol production. Simply using the starch before it is fed to cattle does not impact these at all. We are just getting two or more uses from the grain before it is run through a cow.

Do they believe that once its fermented it is actually gone or unusable? Do they realize there is very little waste in the process if done properly?

See I would be very condescending and quite possibly do more harm than good there. Apparently few if any of them are farmers, and even fewer understand agriculture, be it mechanized monoculture or permaculture. Each and every one of those problems he listed are a direct result of a monoculture approach used in large scale farming.

I have a cousin who bought the ancestral family farm land from my dad, he farms over 12,000 acres total. He tore up the pasture land, terraces, and ponds in the valleys my great grandfather and grandfather built in the 30s and 40s to plant more acreage. He removed terraces so the center pivots wouldnt have a problem with them. Now the guy at the bottom of the hill gets washed out every time it rains, and the land where the grass was is only marginal and is usually stunted or washed out. In short he is doing it wrong. Thankfully not everyone is like my cousin, most farmers in the area arent ripping up marginal land that helps prevent soil erosion, because they care about not making another dust bowl. My cousin is motivated by the almighty $$$.

Some guys get it, some dont. Ethanol has little to do with practices like that, abysmally low grain prices have much more to do with it. Farming 12,000 acres with three people has more to do with it. Blaming it all on ethanol production is disingenuous at best, that has been a problem since well before ethanol get started again. I too have a problem with farming that way.

rufus · « **Reply #16 on:** January 25, 2009, 01:28:23 PM »

You "Poked him" good, too. I heard him Grunt.

THUMPIN: Thanks for the link, and the essay. You've gotta go post that over at the Drum. I gave a link, somewhere. That's a neat comparison between firewood, gasoline, and dynamite. Makes a great point.

DragonWhip · « **Reply #15 on:** January 25, 2009, 01:22:08 PM »

Them bears thar have tough hides, eh hotrod. Later.

hotrod · « **Reply #14 on:** January 25, 2009, 12:52:38 PM »

I poked the bear again!

Larry

Thumpin455 · « **Reply #13 on:** January 25, 2009, 11:52:10 AM »

Sorry html pwn3d me. I shall not attempt to be fancy again.. lol.

http://forums.performanceyears.com/forums/showthread.php?t=585815

rufus · « **Reply #12 on:** January 25, 2009, 10:12:51 AM »

RR's shameless about using any old anecdote to "win' a debate. That 39% was such a wild result that I thought someone might have researched how they went about their "Test." Especially being in the middle of ethanol country, and all.

Billyk · « **Reply #11 on:** January 25, 2009, 10:02:25 AM »

This report

Quote from: rufus on January 25, 2009, 09:23:27 AM

RR has done trotted out the old KARE 11 39% Road Test

http://www.kare11.com/news/news_article.aspx?storyid=267612

Did anyone ever look into that "Test?"

This report dates from 2007! It would be better to post "newer" information.

rufus · « **Reply #10 on:** January 25, 2009, 09:23:27 AM »

RR has done trotted out the old KARE 11 39% Road Test

http://www.kare11.com/news/news_article.aspx?storyid=267612

Did anyone ever look into that "Test?"